Are all of these sublinguals? If so do you do put them under the tongue or in between lip and gums?
Also, are you saying "in terms of homocysteine" that a higher dose does not further lower homocysteine?
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Lowering Homocysteine using Hydroxocobalamin instead of Methylcobalamin
- Thread starter Peyt
- Start date
Also, are you saying "in terms of homocysteine" that a higher dose does not further lower homocysteine?
PeterPositive
Senior Member
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It looks like fixing the methylation cycle has helped substantially. Far from a complete fix but I no longer get horrible reactions from food or basic supplements. As regards drugs, I can't say. Haven't taken any in a long while.
For example, I was reacting very badly to gluten and dairy. Now I can have some without side effects, although I still play it safe and avoid to overdo both of them. Mainly because my digestion is still pretty poor and those two can be major offenders in large quantities.
Me too
Interesting.
Cheers
PeterPositive
Senior Member
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- 1,426
Under the tongue.
I have tried the gum thing but it doesn't seem to work for me.
Yes, in my case, so don't take it as a generalization. I am not a doctor so I can only relate my experience.
In general terms lowering homocysteine is certainly dose dependent, meaning that 5000mcg of B12 will act faster, and probably more efficiently, than 500mcg... if one can handle such a dose.
In my case, pushing the B12 and folate higher did provide improvements (mood, cognitive support, pain management) but didn't push the homocysteine lower ~11, which is my current state.
Also, generally speaking, I am not aware that megadoses of B12 are responsible for lowering Hcy values to an extreme. If that was the case, then B12 supplements would come with warnings attached since homocysteine is actually an important amino acid and lowering it too much is as risky as letting it build up.
Interesting, thank you for the info.
Hey,
unfortunately the symptomatic or better said the pattern of the symptomatik does no more fit the beta carotene hypothesis. I have some minor hope left that it could have been from the "excessive" use of chicken soup but the pattern is similar to what I describes to Creatine or NAC.
I have no idea why the human body can mount an reaction that gives a person a flu as a result of taking in something that occurs in the body anyway or that occurs in the food anyway and especially because it occurs there in the same chemical form. Here is must be the methylcobalamine because I dont have that problem with folic acid or B6. Can take those without getting this severe reaction. The filler in the capsule is rice flour and I eat rice everyday. As I never took the capsule the only thing it could be is the methylcobalamine.
I was so happy to finally be able to work on the homocysteine and especially that I could take the active b12. Also I felt good while I was taking it. I was happy because I had hope that lowering the homocysteine might influence other symptoms positive as well.
So I am pretty disappointed (and before I was super happy and grateful because I thought I can tolerate the 3 bs in that form).
I did not eat any chicken soup yesterday but took half a capsule of the b´s early in the morning. It will take 3-7 days until this kind of reaction is over. Very annoying...Coughing all the time, sweating, heat sensation, sore throat...
I will let you know if there will be anything new...
Already thought about alternatives as hydroxocobalamine and/or cyanocobalamine. However nothing of those ever gave me that good feeling as methylcobalamine did and especially: I had no single side effect from the methylcobalamine but always have more sweating and mild flu like symptoms from the hydrox. injections, even if I inject only 100mcg...
unfortunately the symptomatic or better said the pattern of the symptomatik does no more fit the beta carotene hypothesis. I have some minor hope left that it could have been from the "excessive" use of chicken soup but the pattern is similar to what I describes to Creatine or NAC.
I have no idea why the human body can mount an reaction that gives a person a flu as a result of taking in something that occurs in the body anyway or that occurs in the food anyway and especially because it occurs there in the same chemical form. Here is must be the methylcobalamine because I dont have that problem with folic acid or B6. Can take those without getting this severe reaction. The filler in the capsule is rice flour and I eat rice everyday. As I never took the capsule the only thing it could be is the methylcobalamine.
I was so happy to finally be able to work on the homocysteine and especially that I could take the active b12. Also I felt good while I was taking it. I was happy because I had hope that lowering the homocysteine might influence other symptoms positive as well.
So I am pretty disappointed (and before I was super happy and grateful because I thought I can tolerate the 3 bs in that form).
I did not eat any chicken soup yesterday but took half a capsule of the b´s early in the morning. It will take 3-7 days until this kind of reaction is over. Very annoying...Coughing all the time, sweating, heat sensation, sore throat...
I will let you know if there will be anything new...
Already thought about alternatives as hydroxocobalamine and/or cyanocobalamine. However nothing of those ever gave me that good feeling as methylcobalamine did and especially: I had no single side effect from the methylcobalamine but always have more sweating and mild flu like symptoms from the hydrox. injections, even if I inject only 100mcg...
PeterPositive
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,426
Couldn't it be dosage? After all via the diet you can get a few micrograms unless you eat a lot of clams or other high B12 food.
Hey Peter,
unfortunately very likely not. I don´t know why that is but I can give you many similar examples such as: I cannot tolerate even small amounts of L-Glutamine. I get exactly the same symptoms from it: sweating, sore throat, joint pain, flu like reaction. Before I got intoelrant I could take 5g 3x daily for regenration. I then paused for longer time and when I started again I was intolerant after a few doses. However, I can eat meat which contains L-Glutamine. The same with creatine. I could have red meat for a long time and eat so much meat that I must have ingested 2-3 g of creatine. However if I took pure creatine monohydrate (even with only 1-2g) I get the "allergic" or better said flu like reaction.
My diet is very extreme due to my beta carotene intolerance but also intolerance in general. I eat white basmati rice, chicken breast and flax seed oil by 95%. I eat 2x each day. Midday I drink one green tea by 95% of the time.
3 weeks ago I started to use whole chicken to make soup. But in general the above things were my fix diet. I have no choice about the diet. I am on that diet since about a year and tried almost everything to get healthy food into my diet. No chance. As a side note you need to know that I am not a stressed person. In general I am super calm and also easily happy. I mean I am not that type that get´s panicky fast and tries to avoid any symptoms or is afraid for symptoms. I really tried everything to get foods back but I lost more and more.
As far as I know chicken does not contain much b12 but even if it did: Just like with L-Glutamine, it likely is maybe bound or somehow different or my body senses it somehow. I really don´t know.
However due to my severe restrictions I was so happy that I could work with the b vitamins and also with whole chicken (because I think the whole chicken with skin etc. contains helpful stuff).
I will definitively try a low dose as soon as the reaction is over, but according to my experience I am now intolerant to it. As if my body sensed the product and bang...Because the b12 is so important for me and I made another change with the chicken soup (especially with the ones high in beta carotene), I will double check it an test it out. There is some minor hope that it was the weird yellow fat from the chicken soup I started on Friday evening and ate 2x a day since then until Sunday evening. But my feeling and experience says that this typical for a newly gained "allergy". I know this cannot be an allergy but it behaves like an allergy. Once identified, I will get reaction to any amount, tough still the more I take the more heavy the reaction gets...
I will let you know.
Do you know how long the half life is of methylcobalamine? The adverse reaction to vitamin C for example is only 24-48 hours. Reaction to moderate to severe "overload" with Beta carotene however takes longer (about 60- 96 hours) to subside.
Today the reaction is still pretty heavy. Ate the soup on Sunday and took the b vitamins yesterday morning...
unfortunately very likely not. I don´t know why that is but I can give you many similar examples such as: I cannot tolerate even small amounts of L-Glutamine. I get exactly the same symptoms from it: sweating, sore throat, joint pain, flu like reaction. Before I got intoelrant I could take 5g 3x daily for regenration. I then paused for longer time and when I started again I was intolerant after a few doses. However, I can eat meat which contains L-Glutamine. The same with creatine. I could have red meat for a long time and eat so much meat that I must have ingested 2-3 g of creatine. However if I took pure creatine monohydrate (even with only 1-2g) I get the "allergic" or better said flu like reaction.
My diet is very extreme due to my beta carotene intolerance but also intolerance in general. I eat white basmati rice, chicken breast and flax seed oil by 95%. I eat 2x each day. Midday I drink one green tea by 95% of the time.
3 weeks ago I started to use whole chicken to make soup. But in general the above things were my fix diet. I have no choice about the diet. I am on that diet since about a year and tried almost everything to get healthy food into my diet. No chance. As a side note you need to know that I am not a stressed person. In general I am super calm and also easily happy. I mean I am not that type that get´s panicky fast and tries to avoid any symptoms or is afraid for symptoms. I really tried everything to get foods back but I lost more and more.
As far as I know chicken does not contain much b12 but even if it did: Just like with L-Glutamine, it likely is maybe bound or somehow different or my body senses it somehow. I really don´t know.
However due to my severe restrictions I was so happy that I could work with the b vitamins and also with whole chicken (because I think the whole chicken with skin etc. contains helpful stuff).
I will definitively try a low dose as soon as the reaction is over, but according to my experience I am now intolerant to it. As if my body sensed the product and bang...Because the b12 is so important for me and I made another change with the chicken soup (especially with the ones high in beta carotene), I will double check it an test it out. There is some minor hope that it was the weird yellow fat from the chicken soup I started on Friday evening and ate 2x a day since then until Sunday evening. But my feeling and experience says that this typical for a newly gained "allergy". I know this cannot be an allergy but it behaves like an allergy. Once identified, I will get reaction to any amount, tough still the more I take the more heavy the reaction gets...
I will let you know.
Do you know how long the half life is of methylcobalamine? The adverse reaction to vitamin C for example is only 24-48 hours. Reaction to moderate to severe "overload" with Beta carotene however takes longer (about 60- 96 hours) to subside.
Today the reaction is still pretty heavy. Ate the soup on Sunday and took the b vitamins yesterday morning...
UNfortunately the reaction is still not completely gone. It is very similar to my adverse reaction to creatine and NAC, Glutamine etc...
So I am pretty pessimistic that I can tolerate the methylcobalamine because of a direct mast cell response to it. Dont ask me why that is, but I experienced that with many other things as well and experienced many times that once this happened with something I need to avoid it, even after pauzing it...
I will report back when I try it again but it will take 2-3 days until reaction is totally cleared and the I will be happy to take a few days without any reaction....
So I am pretty pessimistic that I can tolerate the methylcobalamine because of a direct mast cell response to it. Dont ask me why that is, but I experienced that with many other things as well and experienced many times that once this happened with something I need to avoid it, even after pauzing it...
I will report back when I try it again but it will take 2-3 days until reaction is totally cleared and the I will be happy to take a few days without any reaction....
@PeterPositive:
just to give you an update:
I don't know why, but I had a mast cell reaction to the methyB12. It very very likely was not because of anything the B12 did (so not because methylation was pushed to hard), but a reaction of my mast cells themselves.
It took up to 2 weeks until I were fine after that reaction and I did not want to risk to try it again.
Instead I used small doses of hydrocortison (5-10mg a day) a a treatment trial. It helped with some of the inflammatory symptoms but it gave me brainfog.
However during that time I injected hydroxocobalamin (about 100mcg) and 1mg folic acid and took b6 orally.
I then stopped taking the hydrocortisone (used it 2 weeks) and injected 1mg of folic acid everyday without any problems.
I am doing that since 2 weeks now. In these 2 weeks I injected maybe 10 days 1mg of folic acid. I took b6 orally each day. I cannot take b2 because I react to it :/. I could take b3 though.
Also I injected 2 more times hydroxocobalamine once per week and increased the dosage to 500mcg.
I found a study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16154437) where they used weekly 1mg injections of hydroxocobalamine and compared it to cyanocobalamine (while all got 1mg of folic acid daily). All participants took a multi-b vit, which containes 10mcg of cyanocob, 1mg folic acid and 6mg pyridoxine.
The b12 levels rose much higher in the hydroxocobalamine group. After 8 weeks the treatments were changed crossover. After 16 weeks, there were no difference in the groups regarding the homocysteine. It was lowered by 33%.
1. Group from 19 to 13
2. From 22 to 14.8
So the levels still were not optimal afterwards.
What is fact is, that my b12 levels will increase very high when I inject b12 weekly, even if I "only" use 500mcg. The authors said that they don't know if they had the same results with lower HC doses, but it could be.
I wonder if it is a good idea then to go on the way I do it now:
Taking 25mg b6 daily orally
injecting 1mg folic acid daily
injecting 500mcg hydrocobalamine (or should I use 1mg? There is no problem with adverse symptoms when I use these forms of b vitamins).
I added 50mg of b1 to my b12 injection 2x now.
Should I add niacine? I eat chicken daily and should reach 100% rda.
But I dont reach 100% rda of vitamin B2 and cannot take it orally so far.
My plan would be to check my homocysteine level after 4 weeks doing this, so in about 2 weeks...
just to give you an update:
I don't know why, but I had a mast cell reaction to the methyB12. It very very likely was not because of anything the B12 did (so not because methylation was pushed to hard), but a reaction of my mast cells themselves.
It took up to 2 weeks until I were fine after that reaction and I did not want to risk to try it again.
Instead I used small doses of hydrocortison (5-10mg a day) a a treatment trial. It helped with some of the inflammatory symptoms but it gave me brainfog.
However during that time I injected hydroxocobalamin (about 100mcg) and 1mg folic acid and took b6 orally.
I then stopped taking the hydrocortisone (used it 2 weeks) and injected 1mg of folic acid everyday without any problems.
I am doing that since 2 weeks now. In these 2 weeks I injected maybe 10 days 1mg of folic acid. I took b6 orally each day. I cannot take b2 because I react to it :/. I could take b3 though.
Also I injected 2 more times hydroxocobalamine once per week and increased the dosage to 500mcg.
I found a study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16154437) where they used weekly 1mg injections of hydroxocobalamine and compared it to cyanocobalamine (while all got 1mg of folic acid daily). All participants took a multi-b vit, which containes 10mcg of cyanocob, 1mg folic acid and 6mg pyridoxine.
The b12 levels rose much higher in the hydroxocobalamine group. After 8 weeks the treatments were changed crossover. After 16 weeks, there were no difference in the groups regarding the homocysteine. It was lowered by 33%.
1. Group from 19 to 13
2. From 22 to 14.8
So the levels still were not optimal afterwards.
What is fact is, that my b12 levels will increase very high when I inject b12 weekly, even if I "only" use 500mcg. The authors said that they don't know if they had the same results with lower HC doses, but it could be.
I wonder if it is a good idea then to go on the way I do it now:
Taking 25mg b6 daily orally
injecting 1mg folic acid daily
injecting 500mcg hydrocobalamine (or should I use 1mg? There is no problem with adverse symptoms when I use these forms of b vitamins).
I added 50mg of b1 to my b12 injection 2x now.
Should I add niacine? I eat chicken daily and should reach 100% rda.
But I dont reach 100% rda of vitamin B2 and cannot take it orally so far.
My plan would be to check my homocysteine level after 4 weeks doing this, so in about 2 weeks...