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lower leg pain/ anticonvulsants

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by heapsreal, Feb 2, 2010.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    australia (brisbane)
    Hi everyone, since av's my cfs has improved greatly, but over the last 2 months have had lower back problems as well as achey legs when i sleep which i have had since cfs, the type that feels like shin splints or growing pains etc and wakes me at early hours of the morning. I know alot of people with cfs get this. It is unrelated to my lower back problem and is not sciatica. I have been taking lyrica for this and it has helped alot. I do occassinally use seroquel for insomnia which i know worsens restless leg syndrome but normally with lyrica its good, if i dont take lyrica and just seroquel on its own, i get stiff all over.

    Ok, what i want to do is try to lose weight to help my lower back pain. Normally when i drop my carbs very low and keep strict i lose weight, this has been the only way i can drop weight. But my weight hasnt budged, if anything has gone up abit, which i think is due to lyrica, which inturn has stopped working for my leg pain. viscious circle.

    I have been looking into a couple of meds to ask my doc about and want anyones experience with them. I know dopamine agonist are sometimes used but after reading about them, im not to found of them, i think they might worsen my sleep. I have looked into topamax and gabitril, both seem like they could help. Im leaning towards gabitril has it has a shorter half life then topamax and have heard topamax can make you very groggy the next day, which Im not keen on. Gabatril also could help me sleep and both could help with leg pain as well as lower back pain. Gabitril from what i have read is weight neutral where as topamax can help you lose.

    Which do i go for , topamax which can aid my weight loss, but feel groggy during the day or gabitril which is weight neutral and minimal hangover. Both have other good qualities that can help other conditions too. Im sure doc will let me try one and if not suitable try the other. I want to guess right first time.

    Cheers!!!
     
  2. Tony

    Tony Still working on it all..

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    Melbourne, Australia
    Hi heaps,

    I can't speak to the drugs you mention but perhaps you could look at magnesium glycinate. It's meant to be the gentler form of magnesium. For aching legs and helping sleep I've found it very useful.
    http://www.biomedcafe.com.au/ sell it. My doc recommends it to quite a few.

    Great to hear of your impressive improvement healthwise too!

    Cheers!
     
  3. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    East Coast
    Hi Tony,

    Thanks for your post. I am always glad to see another magnesium glycinate cheerleader sharing information. The stuff has made an amazing difference for me. Just this past week I have been able to shed the drug elavil which I had been taking for sleep and leg pain for 18 years. I have wanted off of it forever because it made me hungry 24 hours a day, day in and day out. Every time I tried to back off of it, the insomnia and muscle pain came back with a vengence. I looked at some similiar drugs, but they all had the same side effect. I started taking mg glycinate about 10 months ago - starting with a small dose and gradually increased it. The insomnia is pretty much gone along with most muscle pain along with some other improvements. I only wish I had taken it a long time ago. Do I believe it can help "cure" cfs? Sigh, I only wish that were true.

    I have recently been wondering about the magnesium glycinate form too. From what I read, the compound is formed by binding the mg to the amino acid glycine. When you take it orally, I wonder if it separates into the magnesium and glycine, or whether the stomach acid cause the glycine to bind with something else? In any case, in one of my reference books, glycine is listed as the most important amino acid for the neutralization of toxins. Glycine even has it's own liver detox pathway.

    Take care,

    HW
     
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    australia (brisbane)
    hi tony, thanks for that advice, have use magnesium before with no help but not glycinate, will look into it. Took 25mg of topamax last night, definately slept better still had some leg pains but not as bad as has been, apparently it can take 3 days to reach a steady state dose so will see how this go's before increasing. So far my pepsi max tastes no different as they say a side affect is soda tastes yuk. Its only been 1 night but i havent got any side effects at all that i have read on the net, dont feel groggy or anything. Hope the diet Im on starts working now
     
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Any kind of magnesium except magnesium oxide is supposed to work. The mag oxide is not very well absorbed. I take magnesium taurate.

    It's possible you weren't taking enough magnesium. Slowly increase the dose over several days or weeks until you have diarrhea, then back off one pill and that is "your" dose. I take 5 a day, I've heard of someone needing 12.
     
  6. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    East Coast
    tony/caledonia

    Hi Guys,

    Just a couple of other comments. Tony, it is possible that you weren't absorbing the magnesium. I now take 400 mg of magnesium glycinate at bedtime. I started with 100 mg and worked up. When I first started, it took a couple of weeks before the magnesium helped my insomnia. And it was a couple of months before I saw an improvement in leg pain. My leg pain is now gone. Many things can prevent magnesium absorption including taking it with calcium, diets high in oxalic acid, stress, or alcohol. Also, some medications such as diuretics, asthma meds, etc. can cause a magnesium dump.

    About magnesium oxide. People used it for years because they thought it was more effective. There is 300 mg of elemental magnesium in 500 mg of magnesium salt, whereas there is only 50 mg of elemental magnesium in magnesium taurate or magnesium glycinate. Looks like mg oxide is a better bargain, right? Unfortunately, studies now show that only 4% of magnesium oxide are absorbed from a 500 mg capsule.

    And from "The Magnesium Miracle":

    "Magnesium taurate, glycinate, and orotate are amino acide chelates of magnesium that have less laxative effect on the intestines than magnesium citrate, so they are recommended in those who tend to have loose stools. Magnesium taurate is a combination of the amino acid taurine and magnesium that has special properties for the heart. Taken together in this combination, magnesium and taurine have a synergistic effect, stabilizing cell membranes, calming the nervous system, and inhibiting nerve excitation. Taurine also transports magnesium across cell membranes, making this form of magnesium highly absorbed."

    and

    "IV magnesium is the most absorbable form of magnesium, and magnesium oil is the second best. Third best are the oral forms magnesium glycinate, magnesium taurate, and magnesium orotate. Fourth comes magnesium citrate, but since it's usually cheaper than other forms, it's become the most popular. Magnesium oxide is a distinct fifth and very poorly absorbed, but it makes a great laxative."

    Who would have ever thought that taking magnesium would be so complicated!

    Take care,

    HW
     
  7. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

    I take the iv initially in the myers cocktail which has been life transforming there is now also an aerosol version which is almost as well absorbed as the iv .
     
  8. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    Gets more complicated than that. There's Mg malate, aspartate, and gluconate that are well absorbed too. I like the Malate.
     
  9. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi Kim,

    Yes it does get more complicated. From the same source:

    Re magnesium malate - stability constant 1.55

    "Magnesium malate combines magnesium with malic acid, a weak organic acid found in vegetables and fruit, especially apples. The weak bond with magnesium makes it readily soluble in the body. Malic acid is a key component of several energy-making chemical reactions in the body. "

    Magnesium glutamate* - stability constant 1.90

    "*Avoid magnesium glutatmate, it breaks down into the neurotransmitter glutamic acid, which without being bound to other amino acids is neurotoxic. Glutamic acid is a component of aspartame, which should also be avoided."

    Magnesium aspartate* - stability constant 2.43

    "*Avoid this form, it breaks down into the neurotransmitter aspartic acid, which without being bound to other amino acids is neurotoxic. Aspartic acid is a component of aspartame, which should also be avoided."

    Stability constant refers to the value that is placed on all metal-ligand complexes.

    "Magnesium citrate is a metal-ligand complex, the metal is magnesium and the ligand is citric acid. Magnesium taurate is a metal-ligand complex composed of the metal magnesium and the ligand taurine. Stability constants range from less than one into the teens. If a metal-ligand has a very low staiblity constant (less than 1), the metal-ligand is readily soluble in water and also easily dissociates into the metal ionic form shown and the ligand."

    Take care,

    HW
     
  10. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    London
    Hi Heapsreal,

    If the magnesium doesn't help then would you try something like Baclofen? I'm finding it good for that same excruitaing pain in the lower legs. Keeping that area cold helps me and I keep a "Chillow" by the bed to put under the painful areas as they occur.

    Lyrica had so many side effects for me and although I've heard of the weight gain from others I was lucky in that respect. Have been taking the Baclofen on a "when I need it basis" for a couple of years now.
     
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I found lyrica really good but have been on it for awhile and it has just stopped working, minimal weight gain but cant lose when on it thats for sure. Also found lyrica when taken with sleep meds gave me good quality sleep, but its time to move on. 2 nights on topamax and leg pain has decreased, sleeping well with reduced sleep meds, still no side effects, although dont feel as hungry which is good. Still may increase the dose in a few days time and see if i can sleep with no leg pain. So far this is a good med for me.

    Cheers!!
     

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