1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
California 2014: IACFS/ME Day Four: Translating Science into Clinical Care: 23 March 2014
It is Day Four and the final conference session from San Francisco. In this review we hear from Searcher about the neurosciences session, and PET and EEG analysis, then a study on cognitive functioning, followed by a debate on the revised 2014 IACFS/ME Primer, and then we wrap-up the...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

low wbc, high rdw, coagulation

Discussion in 'Diagnostic Guidelines and Laboratory Testing' started by kisekishiawase, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

    Messages:
    156
    Likes:
    40
    southeast asia
    i dont know if this is the right section but i really need some inputs for this issue that im confused about.
    since november i found out when i order cbc that my wbc decreased to 3.69. neutrophil 55%. rdw high 14.9. hb, mcv, mch, mchc, normal.
    my monocyte also high
    2 days ago rdw 15.7 wbc 36.1
    it has been a long time i havent got tested for cbc so i dont know since when i develop that condition.
    i can only find my previous result in january 2013 wbc 5.6. and before that wbc was also high
    i read vit b12 could effect rdw so i did the vit b12 test and the result was 360.

    1 week ago the hematologist that i went into check for ACA, LA, homeostasis. (according to the patients there he usually get almost everyone that test. all for coagulation test. but no test for leukocyte?) the result wasnt good he said i have hypercoagulability (i havent seen how bad was it, which tests appear out of range and which in range) and gave me drugs for it and take for 1 month
    when i ask what could be the caused for decrease wbc he said could be virus however he said to postpone for finding the caused/do the test for the decreasing of leukocyte later.
    also doesnt elevated rdw could effect/correlated with some aspect? as i already have tachycardia, palpitation low bp (and high when on episode/attack) im more alarmed.
    reading about the caused got me more concerned. and dont know what to do. :( (why another problem when its already bad before)
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  2. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

    Messages:
    274
    Likes:
    133
    England
    Well if you had any sort of blood condition that had progressed to the point of serious then you probably wouldn't have time to post on here. You'd be at the hospital. The fact that you checked unintentionally tells me that you weren't feeling ill (yes all cfs patients feel ill but you weren't feeling worse then usual I'm guessing) when you ordered this.

    It doesn't come across as life threatening so I wouldn't worry. Try to avoid self diagnosis. If you Dr was seriously worried then he would have ordered a leukocyte test. Don't panic x
  3. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

    Messages:
    156
    Likes:
    40
    southeast asia
    thank you for answering :) i do hope its ok but was alarmed if theres some correlation to some aspect/effect to health issue. as i already have many health issue. actually i check for it because i did feel worse, lack of sleep and eating but now ive 'fix' my diet, eat a lot and try to try to get enough sleep (a little) but the result was still bad.

    also the doctor just said that the coagulation test result wasnt good.
  4. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    577
    Likes:
    199
    USA
    Hi,

    There are many reasons for hypercoagulability, but elevated homocysteine is one of them. Elevated homocysteine can be from folate, B12, and B6 deficiency.

    I believe your serum B12 level is far too low.

    Elevated RDW may be from iron deficiency, as well as B12 and folate deficiency. With these three deficiencies, the MCV, etc. may appear normal.

    Low iron and low B12 can cause tachycardia and palpitations.
  5. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

    Messages:
    156
    Likes:
    40
    southeast asia
    thank you so much for answering :)
    i see, i expect there are some factors to it. i now cut down on veggies cause of the vitamin k :( also supplementing/intake with omega 3, vit e, vit b6, garlic could help i guess? i ask the doctor what caused hypercoagulability/factors contribute to it but he just told me to take the drug.
    so i wonder does homocysteine test needed?
    bur i wouldnt seem to have anemia cause my hb was normal isnt it? i dont know about folate though..
    isnt the range for vit b12 is 211-911?

    however im worried about the low wbc.
  6. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

    Messages:
    274
    Likes:
    133
    England
    Doesn't sound too good. I'm sorry I can give much medical advice but the more you worry the worse your coagulation problems may become and nobody wants that. :) good luck x
    kisekishiawase likes this.
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    5,355
    Likes:
    3,699
    Albuquerque
    Hypercoag is common in ME/CFS patients. Dr. David Berg has done a lot of research on it and put together both a test for it that is designed for this category of patients (the ISAC panel: http://www.hemex.com/prodserv/test_menu/phoenix/), and a protocol to deal with it. If you google his name and hypercoagulation you will be able to read about it.

    I did this test and followed his protocol some years ago and did get an upswing in health. There could, of course be other reasons for hypercoagualtion so it is good your doctor is checking into this.

    Best,
    Sushi
    taniaaust1, kisekishiawase and cph13 like this.
  8. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    577
    Likes:
    199
    USA
    Hi,

    The homocysteine test may be a good idea. Even though there are many reasons for the elevation, from what I've read, it seems to relate to folate the most. A red blood cell folate test may also help.

    There are cases of normal HGB and low iron, but it could just be that your iron is normal.

    Do you have the numbers for your MCV and MCH? Over the years, the ranges have been changed. Now, MCV over 100 is abnormal, but it used to be that MCV over 96 was abnormal. The optimal MCV is about 92, from what I've read. Not everyone with B12/ folate deficiency will have an elevated MCV.

    The serum B12 test is the least diagnostic of B12 def. From reading about it, anything 500 or below is suspect. Here's a case of a man who had a B12 serum between 300-400, who was later diagnosed with pernicious anemia.
    http://rossscience.org/ARTICLE/OJHMT-3-2.php

    Low WBC can also be from many causes, but B12/ folate deficiency is included in this list.
    http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/wbc/tab/test/
    kisekishiawase likes this.
  9. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

    Messages:
    156
    Likes:
    40
    southeast asia
    i want to thanks everyone who posted here and give me inputs. i greatly appreciate it :D

    @Crux the mcv was 89
    what im confused about is what makes the wbc decreased when my diet has been the same. lately i even increase b12 food intake. about folate i read list of food source of it and i should be getting folate from it since i eat food contains high folate.
    i didnt know low wbc could caused by folate/b12 defiency though. guess i should supplement b12 and folate. and test for folate? but theres some research about folate feeds gut pathogens and since i have gut bugs i should be careful with it.
    it could also be a virus/infection? maybe crp test also? since i also got low d 25 and couldnt get d 1.25 it said low d 25 could be also from inflammation.
    could hypercoagulation causing that? i didnt find info on that though.

    @Sushi i visited the link, lots of tests listed there :confused:
    do you take drugs for coagulation issue? what protocol are you talking about some kind of treatment?

    i just read that antiplatelet (plavix) could decrease/inhibit leukocyte? also harmful for ulcer. does anyone know more info about this?

    then this is counterattack each other :( and how/why am i supposed to take the anticoagulant the doctor prescribed.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  10. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    577
    Likes:
    199
    USA
    Hi Kisekishiawase;

    My, isn't this complicated? Hope I can get my brain going to try to understand this!:confused:

    I agree that a test for RBC folate would be good. Homocysteine too.

    I'm again wondering about the iron. Maybe a test for serum ferritin? I am wondering about this because low iron can increase platelets. Are your platelets elevated?

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034520

    I also wonder if you are gluten sensitive. Do you have alot of gut trouble? With gluten sensitivity, there can be malabsorption and then malnutrition.

    Here's a wiki article about some of the causes of elevated RDW.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell_distribution_width

    That's why I keep wondering about the ferritin.

    I agree that having dysbiosis can possibly be causing many of these issues. I see you have been trying to heal with diet.
    Do you eat wheat and other grains? Do they cause discomfort?
    kisekishiawase likes this.
  11. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

    Messages:
    156
    Likes:
    40
    southeast asia
    @Crux thank you so much for helping :balloons: :woot:
    this is another weird part.
    my ferritin on january was 16.9 the lab result written normal range female 9.3-159 though when i called they say 12- 150 but then i google it i got varies result. and i was thinking its slightly low and my hb was 12.7 wbc 6400 omg i was wrong i thought 5600 and now 3600 :(
    weirdly on november when after months i didnt test for cbc i order the test and find out increased ferritin 40.9 and hb 14.7 and thats what confused me caused i expect it to be lower i didnt supplement any iron booster. (thats when i also found out my wbc is low 3.6 and neutrophil 55% low :( )
    and the last test days ago hb was 12. didnt check for ferritin.
    i read on your link
    Recent Hemorrhage: typical presentation is high RDW with normal MCV
    :eek: huh

    yes i do have a lots of guts and food sensitivity and avoid wheat, sugary food, processed food, etc. but i eat rice and i think its ok.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  12. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    577
    Likes:
    199
    USA
    Hi Kisekishiawase;

    Sorry, didn't mean to bring scary information.:oops: These papers include the worst case scenario, so let's leave that alone.

    So the ferritin goes up and down, but it's not optimal. There are many here who have trouble with keeping iron up, even with supplements. I don't know what to suggest. I've read that vitamin C and copper aid iron absorption.

    Hemoglobin is lowest normal.

    From the ranges for neutrophils I've seen, yours looks normal. ( 35-80 %).

    There are very few labs who have the same ranges for 'normal'.:confused:

    So, I'm thinking it's still a good idea to test RBC folate and homocysteine to see if abnormal values may be causing the hypercoagulability.

    Many of us here have found that there may be genetic reasons for our need to supplement B12 and folate, even with an excellent diet. Having an excellent diet is still great, though. :woot:
    kisekishiawase likes this.
  13. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    5,355
    Likes:
    3,699
    Albuquerque
    Hi Kisekishiawase,

    If you look at the link I gave, scroll down to the ISAC panel (the tests are in alphabetical order). That is the one that was designed for those with ME/CFS. Mine came back with two abnormalities and my doctor followed the protocol that Dr Berg was recommending at the time (though I think that has changed now). You can find his latest protocol through google.

    What anti-coagulant was prescribed for you? The key is to use one that works on the type of hypercoagulation that testing reveals.

    At the time I gave myself two low dose, low molecular weight heparin injections a day for quite a few months and then followed up with high doses of nattokinase. I believe he has now added in either anti-viral or anti-bacterial elements to the protocol as well.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
    kisekishiawase likes this.
  14. KENNY-SILVERS

    KENNY-SILVERS conscientious objector

    Messages:
    67
    Likes:
    19
    Washington
    WHAT exactly are your symptoms ? I don't want to sound mean , but the tests are a waste of time . At least
    outside of a blood test or a lymph node test . They give you hope , and then back to nothing . But no one could help you without knowing your symptoms . Just to find out if it is Cfs.
  15. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,757
    Likes:
    3,340
    Sth Australia
    Your B12 sounds low (different countries have different recommendations for what is considered normal, some levels considered normal arent so good).
    ..........

    Secondly hypercoagulation as Sushi says, is a common issue in ME/CFS. Various things can trigger it off from chemcial reactions, diet issues, infection etc...

    One thing I highly recommend you get tested for which can cause hypercoagulation is MTHFR polymorphism (mutation). Its fairly common in the normal population but I think far more common in ME/CFS and can cause issues (its a methylation issue). Many of us find treating it if you have it helpful and it can prevent future serious issues which could occur. (I have a disabled child due to it). Those who have this should take baby asprin during pregnancy to help thin the blood as one can get spontanous miscarriages otherwise.
  16. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

    Messages:
    156
    Likes:
    40
    southeast asia
    @Sushi thanks. i try to check the link again. natto=fermented soy? whats the natto for? i read natto is the source of k2. the drug was clopidogrel.
    @Crux thank you again for your help i really appreciate it :angel: yes the normal range may vary some labs use 50%-70% however the last test the neutrophil decreased to 52%. i take an iron booster with folic acid now. i already take vit c but combine with vit e not the iron booster. another doctor i went into said different thing then the previous doctor. while the previous doctor said leukocyte could decrease because of virus. the one i went into said if leukocyte was too low then the test was just bone marrow. i get freak and he said i dont need to test it 3.6 still ok. he also said it could be leukopenia. (but isnt leukopenia caused by many things) so i ask if its maybe due infection (cause from what i know its possible) but he said infection increased it not lower it. i hope the leukocyte increases and dont drop anymore so it wont concern me anymore.
    @taniaaust1 im sorry to hear that :oops: thats a genetic test? i take my hydroxy b12 now i hope it helps. i used to take antibiotic due to infection (although for about a week once in a while) maybe thats also plays a role to b12.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
    Crux likes this.
  17. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    577
    Likes:
    199
    USA
    Hi Kisekishiawase;

    You're very welcome.:hug:

    I would like to recommend methylfolate, instead of folic acid to you. Many of us have trouble converting folic acid, ( inactive), to methylfolate, ( active). Methylfolate is what the body uses.

    I don't know if it's easy to find in stores, but, it can be found online. iherb carries it, though some companies have a better price. I'm not sure how shipping prices would factor in.

    http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Folate-As-Metafolin-800-mcg-100-Tablets/13961

    I hope that combining B12, folate, and iron, will improve the symptoms, most of all; but also the test results!
    :thumbsup:
  18. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    5,355
    Likes:
    3,699
    Albuquerque
    From a website: https://www.protherainc.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=NTK

    Supports fibrinolytic activity. (my bolding)

    Nattokinase is a proteolytic enyzme found in natto, a cheese-like fermented soy food consumed in Japan for over 1,000 years. Its principle effect is fibrinolysis or the degradation of fibrin. Fibrin is a fibrillar protein that when linked together forms the mesh essential for blood clot formation. The formation and breakdown of fibrin is delicately balanced with too little fibrin formation leading to bleeding and excessive fibrin formation associated with abnormal blood clot formation and inflammation. In addition to directly breaking down fibrin, nattokinase up-regulates the body’s plasminogen system, the natural mechanism that guards against excess fibrin formation. By triggering tissue plasminogen activator nattokinase supports the fibrinolytic activity of plasmin, an enzyme that dissolves fibrin clots during the healing process that follows injury to a blood vessel wall. Nattokinase may support healthy blood clotting, circulation, and platelet function by helping to maintain optimum functioning of the body’s normal fibrinolytic processes. Nattokinase NSK-SD® is produced from the fermentation of non-GMO soybean isolates by Bacillus subtilis natto. It is standardized to fibrin units of activity and is free of vitamin K.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page