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Low potassium and folate deficiency/insufficincy symptoms decision tree - Beta

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    TRANSLATION OF POPULAR DESCRIPTIVE TERMS TO PRACTICAL CORRECTIONS
    During methylation treatments for FMS, CFS, ME, MS. Cures or long term remissions can occur if the clues are understood and followed. Also suggestive of possible ways to detect impending MS, ALS and Parkinsons 10-20 years before diagnosis and hopefully prevent.

    There are several popular nutritional treatments and variations for FMS, ME, CFIDS, CFS and several other syndrome names. There is at least one study being conducted for use in MS of exactly the same nutrients because people are having success on them. Many of the same nutritional supplements may be taken in the various programs and by people in general just trying to be healthy.

    Under the banner of partial methylation block theory there are a number of programs that center on several forms of cobalamin and of folate with additional vitamins, minerals and supplements. The number and completeness of those other items determine if it is the full methylation protocol or simplified methylation protocol (SMP). Under the banner of Functional Deficiency Diseases which include active b12 deficiencies (4 deficiencies) and induced or paradoxical folate deficiency there is the Active b12 and folate protocol (ABP).

    Whatever names these diseases are called they deal with a universe of symptoms that include up to 400 symptoms and signs, depending upon granularity (ie peripheral neuropathy encompasses dozens of possible symptoms and signs). They are in several main categories. They might be grouped as endothelial, epithelial, immune, neurological, blood, and other tissues. Or they might be classified as Skin, GI, lung, heart, veins, arteries, neurological brain, neurological cord, neurological - peripheral, neurological other, neuro-psyc, blood, mood, personality etc.


    WHEN TREATED

    All of these are flags indicating healing is occurring. Minimizing nervous system response reduces or stops healing, especially of the nervous system. Minimizing ATP response prevents normalization of biochemistry.
    1 - Low potassium, almost everybody when healing starts. often called detox
    2 - Low folate symptoms even with small doses of Metafolin often called detox
    3 - Nervous system activation, everything is perceived as more intense often called detox
    4 ATP activation, everything is more energetic and intense often called detox

    Whatever distinctions are made, a key characteristic is that symptoms, once well developed, of these syndromes will include multiple tissue types, multiple systems. To the casual observer they appear to be not connected. After all what do blood abnormalities, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, daily nausea and vomiting, severe fatigue, muscle atrophy, asthma, hypersensitive nervous system responses, muscle pains, MCS, mood and personality changes, widespread body pain, peripheral neuropathy, poly neuropathies, burning bladder, poor immune response, FMS, CFS, autoimmune response, raspy voice, unable to focus eyes, faded vision, multi sensory hallucinations and many others have in common? They all share a common set of nutritional deficiency causes. Some will argue that these are not absolute deficiencies but rather functional deficiencies. For treatment purposes that doesnt matter unless one is trying to restrict access to treatment (insurance wont cover)

    The more severely affected a person is the harder hitting the vitamins are when started. There are several initial responses that may occur. In the popular terminology most of them are lumped together under the term DETOX reaction or response. These responses may start in minutes to days depending up many circumstances.

    The supplements being considered here are methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, cyanocobalamin, folic acid, folinic acid, Metafolin-methylfolate, SAM-e, L-carnitine, glutathione, NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine), Cerefolin-NAC, Whey, Metanx, Deplin.

    More rarely Vitamins D A - C, magnesium, zinc

    Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey are all glutathione or glutathione precursors. The NAC typically overpowers the Cerefolin completely.
    Metafolin, methylfolate, Deplin are all methylfolate
    Metanx is Metafolin, methylb12 and P5P
    B12 forms, in order of effectiveness and likelihood of causing the responses listed here are methylcbl, adenosylcbl, hydroxycbl, cyanocbl

    Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called frequently called detox depending upon what theories they are operating under most typically they have nothing at all to do with toxins or any actual detox. Typically they are working on a toxin theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the translations are made it is clear that actual detox if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore. If it is detox in an actual sense, then it is in what is left after these other things are accounted for and/or corrected and requires much additional definition.

    Group 1 Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as approximately 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered rare with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and somewhat less so with hydroxycobalamin. This is actually a flag indicating cell formation has started up at a pretty good rate.

    IBS Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, neck muscles, Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

    Group 2a - Both
    IBS Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS Normal alternating with constipation

    Group 2b Either or both
    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency
    IBS Steady diarrhea, IBS Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily,metallic taste, lack of dreaming.

    Group 4
    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

    Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12. If glutathione (precursors) are the cause then larger doses of Metafolin, 7.5-15mg,or maybe more are needed. Different tissues are affected at different levels of methylfolate, it comes or goes in stages. Very strong dose proportionate characteristics are present. Serum folate levels may be high or even very high despite Metafolin responsive deficiency/insufficiency symptoms.

    Group 1 symptoms respond readily to potassium. The symptoms and response to potassium may occur at a serum level of approximately 4.3 or less.


    IF taking Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey, all glutathione or glutathione precursors
    AND often sudden onset of several group 3 symptoms (Detox) maybe in a sequence, ie pain and inflammation the first day, cheilitis occurs on day 2-3 and IBS on day 5-6, plus any group 2 symptoms. Symptoms increase in both quantity and intensity for weeks or months and can vary from mild to extreme. They do not go away when glutathione/NAC are stopped and may continue for up to at least 6 months despite daily doses of Metafoil, mb12 and adb12.

    THEN Induced Paradoxical Folate Deficiency onset. B12 deficiencies follow in a week for methylb12 deficiency symptoms and several weeks for adenosylb12 deficiency symptoms. None of the other supplements can overcome the effects of glutathione or NAC.

    ELSE - all other conditions

    IF injecting b12
    AND itchy bumps and acne type lesions appear mostly on scalp and face but not exclusive
    THEN B12 was hydroxycbl OR photolytically deteriorated methylcbl OR cyanocbl, Lesions can be reversed in days with methylcbl injections not exposed to light at all.

    IF starting or adding methylb12, adenposylb12 or hydroxycbl, AND OR Metafolin (perhaps 80%)
    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 1 and/or group2
    THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden widespread healing onset. This usually occurs as soon as methylation therapy starts widespread healing process by allowing DNA replications with methylb12 and methylfolate.

    IF adding adenosylcobalamin AND OR L-carnitine fumarate AND OR SAM-e to program (perhaps 50%)
    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 1 and/or group2
    THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and /or muscle growth. This usually occurs when the person has experienced muscle shrinkage perhaps from decades of inactivity, as soon as these supplements step up mitochondria functioning.

    IF adding or increasing any of Vitamins D, A, E, or C, magnesium, zinc (perhaps 10%)
    AND on the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 1 and/or group2
    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.

    IF starting or increasing folic acid
    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 3 and/or group2
    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folic acid is the most oxidized form of folate that anybody can use. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folic acid can actually block the methylfolate.

    IF starting or increasing folinic acid
    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 3 and/or group2
    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is a less oxidized form of folate than folic acid.. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.

    IF an increase in dietary vegetable folate, green drinks, a garden feast
    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 3 and/or group2
    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.

    IF starting or increasing folic acid AND OR starting or increasing folinic acid AND OR an increase in dietary vegetable folate
    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 1 and/or group2
    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 3 and/or group2
    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency AND this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing

    IF starting or Methylfolate Metafolin starting low and titrating
    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 1 and/or group2
    AND OR usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 3 and/or group2
    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency, a donut hole deficiency. The effects of folate deficiency/insufficiency comes in layers. Several tissue groups can be healing at the same time as other tissue groups are deteriorating. IBS and angular cheilitis can be worsening at the same time as muscles are healing or growing. There is a dose of Metafolin that can start more tissue formation than the same dose can sustain causing a Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency at the same time. In some people at least as they increase Metafolin the need for potassium increases approximately proportionately. The donut hole can be closed with total daily doses of Metafolin of about 15mg for many people.
     
  2. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Thank you soooooo much. I have just started to research this and have put it off because I did not think it applied to me! But... your protocal was simpler and went with it. I did not see any until I took the metaform! within half hour, I felt like crap! and I only took 400. But then I took the potassium! and I was back to doing fine. I have to tell you that I discovered 5 years ago that if I drink Disani water that I feel so much better. And strangely enough, it is fortified with both manesium (spelling) and potassium! Now I know why it make me feel so good!

    I have fibro with fatigue. through all kinds of meds and modifications, I am now running 60-70%. I have a part-time desk job. This week with the FAP, I have been running 10-15 % more energy.

    I just want to say thinks!
    kim
     
  3. daisychain

    daisychain

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    Should this topic be pinned...?
     
  4. Hoops

    Hoops

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    This is great information Fred, I'm surprised it hasn't drawn dozens of comments. It is obviously written by a software developer (!)

    In the list of Group 1 and Group 3 symptoms, are the items at the start of the lists more indicative of hypokalemia / paradoxical folate deficiency, or are all symptoms in the list equally indicative ? Would most people tend to have only one or 2 defining symptoms in the lists ?
     
  5. blossom

    blossom Guest

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    Freddd, I seem to have that donut hole effect of folate insufficiency. Two weeks ago, I started your program as you recommended (I had just developed many symptoms of chronic fatigue and an alternative DAN doctor recommended B12 and I ended up using your recommended protocol), but after a couple days on metafolin I developed a headache in the afternoon. After a couple days, I read your thread about possibly needing more folate so over 3 days I titrated up to a daily dose of 7200mcg (9 solgar pills) of metafolin. I definitely got much worse with red itchy eyes which I've never had before, sore throat, sort of canker sores inside my cheeks, lots of inflammation aches and pains, and very increased appetite that seemed to reverse some of the gains made with the initial addition of methyl-b12. I also had a couple cracks in my tongue which initially started to heal and then with additional metafolin stabilized with no more healing. This just happened this weekend so this morning I stopped taking the metafolin after having a hard time putting my contacts in my eyes (I work full-time). After reading this, I am understanding that I need to increase my dose of metafolin to 15 mg (about 18-19 solgar pills). This means I will go through a bottle every 5 days or so. How long would I have to keep up this dose assuming it works?

    I was taking the metafolin in 3 equal doses before meals. Should I possibly take it away from meals? The only folic acid I take is in the b complex, and a couple slices of bread that I eat each day. I am on no medications.

    Also, when at the 7200mcg dose of metafolin, my low potassium symptoms were such that it felt I could not get enough potassium. I was taking 5 potassium pills every hour in addition to food. My blood test done about 3 weeks ago put my serum potassium level at 3.9. Could this be a problem with such a high dose of metafolin?

    Thanks!
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Hoops,

    The ones in the first half of each list tend to be the ones that usually come on in hours to days. The later part of each group are usually only seen in longer persisting situations. So the later ones may include symptoms that disappeared after starting healing intially and may have been poresent fo years, and yet then these others keep coming back or getting better and worse without ever going away. Most people learn to spot onset of 2 or 3 of the earliest symptoms. The sooner spotted, the sooner corrected, the sooner unimnterrupted healing can occur.


    It is obviously written by a software developer (!)

    Guilty as charged. I also think it is very explicit.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Blossom,


    I seem to have that donut hole effect of folate insufficiency.


    It does sound that way. It also sounds like you have paradoxical folate deficiency. It might do you well to remove all folic acid and folinic acid from your supplements. Get a B-complex with Metafolin in it, or at least another type of methylfolate. You may find that after you get all folic acid and folinic acid out of your program, and NAC and Glutathione and whey out of your program that the amount yiu need can come down, or not. I have a problem with the vegetable folate and so I have to take about 15mg a day. I find it most effective as 5 tablets with each meal (2 meals a day) and 3 tablets 3 times a day without food. It appears important to be able to compete at each meal and to get some in at other times without competing.

    The potassium need gets turned on by healing getting turned on.

    In my experience especially recently, I've seen this pattern -

    Methylb12 and adenosylb12 doses 50mcg-50,000mcg - healing can turn on, not related to dose

    Potassium need - TYPICALLY 2000-3000mg, some more and some less. As long as titrated by effectiveness against low potassium symptoms, not a problem, be sure to get enough.

    Methylfolate Needs :

    1. No CFS/FMS/ME, no healing startup, no b12 startup, no atp startup, 800mcg
    2. No paradoxical folate deficiency, donut hole deficiency may peter out 1600-3200mcg
    3. Paradoxical folate deficiency folic acid - 6000-8000mcg
    4. Paradoxica folate deficiency folinic acid/veggie folate - 12+mg
    These are just rough estimates based on the patterns of data, lots of exceptions expected and probably a larger range than seen here in all ways.

    I've had my potassium usage fluctuate greatly as healing turned on and off with paradoxical folate deficiency, and in the early days running out of all sorts of things and roadblocks. Others have had their healing peter out finally were able to reduce. People who never have healing startup never had increased Metafolin needed in the first place. This whole healing startup ony appears to happen for people who have the partial methylation blockage in the first place. It takes years for all the pentup healing to run it's course typically.

    I was taking 5 potassium pills every hour in addition to food. My blood test done about 3 weeks ago put my serum potassium level at 3.9. Could this be a problem with such a high dose of metafolin?


    YIKES! That sounds more like mal absorption than your body using that much. Have you tried some other varieties of potassium, perhaps some will absorb better or something. Is each pill 99mg?
     
  8. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Freddd, my friend was experiencing weakness & fatigue, muscle weakness/tightness/cramps. also some numbness which was a new symptom. You called it - it seemed to happen suddenly. I got him up to 4,000 mg. supplement of potassium & 1,000 magnesium this weekend, and he gradually started feeling better. Sunday he was at 5,000 mg. potassium between supplements & food, and felt a lot better. Swallowing much improved & voice started sounding better.

    thank you so much again for discovering this issue.

    Just have to figure out how high one should go with the potassium.
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pea,

    I have keep in range on potassium by staying slightly on the low side and needing a supplementary dose once or twice a week beyond my usual doses. Can you please speak in terms of supplements of potassium? Normal consumption in food is 4000-8000mg generally. Most folks need 2000-3000mg supplemental potassium if actively healing on these protocols. I found that as I go up. first there is a reduction of symptoms, then a step up of "hyper" energy at about plus 700mg above my usual in one dose and lasting about 4 hours. I don't usually go into that. That is the high end for me.
     
  10. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Freddd, for the past several months had been supplementing 600-700 mg./day. We added something called Cell Food and that seemed to really start things up, and last weekend upped to 2,000-3,000 mg./day of potassium supplementation when he started feeling tired & weak etc. Sunday (the day I tracked his food also; thanks Calthea), the potassium supplementation alone was 3,300 mg., may have been another +1,500 (unclear notes).

    Magnesium is important for him too; had been at around 600 mg./day supplementation over the last few months but now at 900 mg. I've noticed a big correlation if he gets enough magnesium - his swallowing function is normal.

    I'm even wondering if this fluid/electrolyte balance is a key to his main voice/neuro issues.

    I find it hard to believe though that people would get 4-6,000 mg. a day from food ?

    I ordered some potassium gluconate powder to avoid some of the 99mg. citrate capsules. Is potassium gluconate similar to strength of potassium citrate, do you or anybody know?
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Pea,

    When I was on the ski patrol at Sugarloaf ME working hard at 40 deg below zero I went through 5000 calories a day. I probaly got 8000-10000mg of potassium daily. I eat 1500 calories daily now so probably get 3000mgs or so. As much of almost every food contains potassium the more you eat the more potassiium you eat. The 4000 to 6000mg a day cvomes from USDA statisitcs, and the numbers vary a little by source or year. I find the potassium gluconate very easy on my stomach. I take 700mg potassium chloride woith each of 2 meals and take the glutaconate tablets, also 99mg of potassium each, as my additional potassium at wakeup and bedtime.The gluconate powder is something like 700mg of potassium per quarter teaspoon. Look on the container.

    Tell me about "Cell food". Some others have mentioned it. It must have had something in it that was limiting your healing. Very good. Follow those clues. That is the way to get well in this.
     
  12. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Can a non software developer (just kidding and no offense to Fredd, my brain just can't absorb this kind of info) give a 1-2 sentence summary of what this is? I cannot absorb this.
     
    minkeygirl likes this.
  13. K2 for Hope

    K2 for Hope ALways Hoping

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    I'm going to give it a shot, but please correct me if I misunderstand. I'm not going to say this is a Cure or remission although it is stated in the first post.

    This is a VERY simple explanation of what Fredd has tried to explain for those people who have already started some protocol and are having issues and are requesting help.

    Basic Summary of Posted Thread:

    1) There are several ways to get "healing" started by using "nutritional treatments and variations for FMS, ME, CFIDS, CFS".
    2) Some people are using one of the protocols listed in this forum and some people are using other supplements, protocols, etc.
    3) There are 2 main areas of concern a) "nervous system response" and b) "ATP response".
    4) There are several symptoms "indicating healing is occurring" that would make one debate stopping the protocol as they are uncomfortable and could possibly instead cause injury.
    5) "Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made."
    6) One needs to determine if the symptoms are due to a nutritional deficiency that can be fixed with additional vitamins, minerals and supplements or are truly a signal of an actual detox situation "which can be dangerous to ignore."

    If you have started some type of protocol, it would be best to get medical advice specific to your case.
     
  14. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    Could I have some of the deficiencies of folate def. but not the first ones on the list. Under group 3 I have the ones underlined in red.

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency
    IBS Steady diarrhea, IBS Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily,metallic taste, lack of dreaming.
    I used to take this vitamin below for aprox one year then switched to Riches protocol for one month then got a bad stomach ache and quit 1 1/2 weeks ago. I just started Fred's protocol yesterday with the essentials and b-complex and methyfolate. . I started methyl b today. I have increased potassium since I am weak and have constipation. I notice my blood tests over the last 2 years have been between 3.9 and 4.2. So far I have taken 700mg potassium today. I took 800 methylfolate this am. My largest problems are very dizzy, vertigo, feels like damage to my brain.

    I do not sleep well at all. Like last night, I was so ready for be at 9:00, but when I went to bed, I seemed to wake up and then couldn't go to sleep.


    USE to Take this Vitamin for about a year before --quit mid April 2012
    [​IMG]
    Per Tablet: Thiamin (Vitamin B-1 as Thiamine Mononitrate) 100 mg; Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) 100 mg; Niacin (as Niacinamide) 100 mg; Vitamin B-6 (as Pyridoxine) 100 mg; Folic Acid 400 mcg; Vitamin B-12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 100 mcg; Biotin 100 mcg; Pantothenic Acid (as Calcium Pantothenate) 100 mg; Choline Bitartrate 100 mg; Inositol 100 mg; PABA (Para-Aminobenzoic Acid) 30 mg; Stearic Acid; Calcium Carbonate; Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose; Acacia Gum; Maltodextrin; Magnesium Stearate; Silica; Triacetin; Polydextrose
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean,

    Most of those things common called "detox" break down into one or both of these deficiencies. On each "IF" line consider if it matches your conditions. I made it very explicit separating each vartiation so a person can find an exact match if possible.

    "Normal" startup with a b12 is some neurological brightening and instensification of neurological sensations.. Being very sick with it is not "normal", it is almost always one or both induced deficiencies for one or several reasons.


    IF starting or adding methylb12, adenposylb12 or hydroxycbl, AND OR Metafolin (perhaps 80%)
    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (Detox) from Group 1 and/or group2

    If I were sitting face to face and asked you "Did you just recently start or increase "methylb12, adenosylb12 or hydroxycbl, AND OR Metafolin ". That is either a yes or no answer. If is no, I would go to another such question. If it is yes I would clarify the question Did your new symptoms appear all together within a few days starting on the 3rd day or later after starting?

    I hope thqat clarifies it for you.
     
  16. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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  17. paul80

    paul80

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    What is the best way to test the paradoxical folate deficiency fred?

    just take more metafolin and see if you feel better?
     
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Paul,

    First, it is good to see if any of the symptoms are on the list of low methylfolate symptoms. Second is folic acid or folinic acid being taken? If so get off of it. Then increase Metafolin. The Deplin tirals for FDA qualification state that "Metafolin is well tolerated with side effects equivalent to placebo". The main side effect of increasing effectiveness could be low potassium.
     
  19. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Oxygen and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (yes, I miss the ability to put titles on replies)

    The Cell Food websites states that “Diseases are anaerobic - they cannot exist in an elevated oxygen environment.” One of the examples of anaerobic diseases they give is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Didn’t Dr. Cheney find that (some of) his patients got worse when they received oxygen? I am wondering where they got the information that CFS is an anaerobic disease, especially since no one really knows what causes it.
     
    Asklipia likes this.
  20. paul80

    paul80

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    Thanks Fred i don't think i have this problem i was just curious.
     

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