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Low E-Coli and Very High Lactococcos Lactis

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Peter, Mar 25, 2012.

  1. Peter

    Peter

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    Hi Everyone, I'm new to this forum, but have suffered from Chonic Fatigue symptoms for quite a few years. (starting from 1998)

    Having looked through this website and the web in general, I'm starting to realise that the gut is quite important to recovery.

    I did some Metametrix Stool tests about 4 months and the levels of Bacteria were within their limits.
    However, just last month my Doctor got me to do a stool test with Bioscreen in Melbourne which showed up some abnormalities. ie

    Aerobic Bacteria:-

    E-Coli is about 2.9% (should be 70-90%)
    Enterococcus is 0%
    Streptococcus is 0%
    Staphylococcus 0.1%
    Lactococcos Lactis is about 96.81% (<5%) > Closely related to Streptococcus, I think this one may be killing me

    Anaerobic Bacteria:-

    Bacteroides is 45.45% (90-95%)
    Prevotella is 0% (<10%)
    Eubacterium is 45.45% (<15%)
    Bifidobacterium is 9.09% (5-11%) > report says it is too high!
    Clostridium 0% (1%-10%)

    The doctor told me he has never seen this before and had to talk to Dr Henry Butt (from Bioscreen) to see what I should do!

    The regime my Dr has me on is:-

    1 week of Antibiotics (Erythromycin 3x per day) then
    1 week of Probiotics (Lactobacillus GG (LGG)) then
    1 week of Antibiotics (Erythromycin 3x per day) then
    1 week of Probiotics (Lactobacillus GG (LGG))

    Then later on may be Mutaflor to help increase the E-Coli.

    The questions I have are:-

    1) Has anyone found a wide discrepancy between the Metametrix and the Bioscreen stool tests?
    2) Has anyone successfully 'killed' the Lactococcos Lactis bacteria?
    3) Has anyone successfully increased their e-coli levels? This seems crucial for folic acid, vitamin K2, Co-enzyme Q10, tyrosine and tryptophan. http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fermentation_in_the_gut_and_CFS

    I've been coffee, alcohol, gluten & dairy free & low sugar for years. I eat lots of nuts, seeds and have a 'healthy' diet in general. I also supplement with a number of vitamins and minerals.

    Your help would be very much appreciated.


    Peter
    W. Australia
     
    CFSNZ likes this.
  2. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Regarding "3) Has anyone successfully increased their e-coli levels?"

    There is a probiotic called Mutaflor which contains E. Coli. You might want to try it. There is a good chance that higher E. Coli numbers could reduce Lactococcus Lactis numbers. You probably did but I would reduce all foods that contain Lactococcus Lactis:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactococcus_lactis
    "Other uses that have been reported for this bacterium include the production of pickled vegetables, beer or wine, some breads, and other fermented foodstuffs, such as soymilk kefir, buttermilk, and others."
     
  3. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    My Genova (similar to Metamarix) was not accurate either. It did not indicate I had H pylori infection. My GP did a blood and stool test after that, and I was positive. Did ABs protocol for H pylori, did another stool test and this time it was negative. So, I do not have much trust in genova or metamatrix.
     
  4. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    I always thought that Metametrix is leading with the accuracy of its tests but when it is true, what you say, I will be more skeptical towards them, too.
     
  5. Peter

    Peter

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    Thanks Waverunner, I may have to try the Mutaflor sooner that what I thought because I haven't handled the first week of antibiotics that well. I've been getting palpitations (esp early in the morning), weaker muscles that usual, muscle twitching is worse, indigestion and generally not a very happy body. I'm not sure whether I could do another round of antibiotics. I just need to convince my doctor to give Mutaflor a go. This makes more sense, but I'm no expert!
     
  6. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Nobody is, that's the problem. Most of us are stuck with this illness for many years now. We need better diagnostics and a better understanding of the human body. Only science can achieve this. Unfortunately things go slower than they should. I would give the Mutaflor a try. If you do better on it, great, if not, just stop it.
     
  7. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    My test was done by Genova. Maybe Metamatix is more accurate, maybe it is not.
     
  8. Peter

    Peter

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    With respect to the differences between the Metametrix and Bioscreen stool tests, I've been thinking that the collection methods may have something to do with it.

    With Bioscreen, you place the sample in a tube (no additives) and then put the tube in a plastic bag. The bag is made air tight, but prior to this you place an Anaerobic satchel inside to keep the Anaerobic bacteria alive. The bag is then placed between ice packs in a foam eski. Then the eski is sealed in box and placed in the fridge until the courier arrives.

    With Metametrix, you place the sample in some tubes that have a whole lot of chemicals inside. Then the tubes are put into a plastic bag and then placed in a box. Then the box is put into the fridge until the courier arrives.

    Peter
     
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  9. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    Ontario
    Thanks Peter. So do you think anaerobic bacteria may be permitted to overgrow in the Bioscreen ? Or is there some way one of the collection procedures is messing up the actual bacterial composition ?

     
  10. Peter

    Peter

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    I don't really know what's go on here.

    The Metametrix test places the samples in Formalin and uses DNA analysis.
    "Formalin immediately kills all organisms, freezing the exact balance
    present at the time of collection. Since DNA identification
    is only looking for the genes of the microbiota, living
    specimens are not necessary. This technique allows the
    clinician to develop the most appropriate therapy based on
    the patients true gut microbiota, resulting in better clinical
    results"
    Source: http://www.metametrix.com/files/lea...nted-limitations-culture-stool-assessment.pdf

    The Bioscreen test is different again.

    "Unlike standard pathology stool testing Bioscreen spends considerable cost on an accredited
    collection and identification method that ensures:
    1) Both anaerobic and aerobic groups are maintained for analysis (NO preservative is
    added to the faecal sample nor is it not adulterated in any way. Oxygen must be
    removed from the sample to ensure survival of anaerobic bacterial groups),
    2) Collection is temperature controlled immediately following collection to ensure that the
    sample most closely resembles the body's internal environment, and
    3) A large..sample is analysed (one gram of faeces versus the standard "one loop,,
    (microlitres)) for accurate quantification.
    lf the sample is not stored and transported in a "dormant" state by temperature control then the faecal
    microbial groups will continue to multiply resulting in a sample that no longer resembles that which the
    body supplied, and which will lead to altered and possibly erroneous results. Treatments based on
    such results may have detrimental implications for patients."

    Source: http://natmed.com.au/cms/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Bioscreen.pdf

    Both tests sound good. But for me the Bioscreen detected a whole load of Lactococcos Lactis & very little E-Coli, which seems to fit with my symptoms (fatigue, poor sleep & mood etc). I guess time will tell. Also a retest after all of this treatment will be very interesting!!!
     
  11. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    This is a perfect example of my chronic fatigue theory which shows an overgrowth of lactic acid producing bacteria compared to an undergrowth of lactic acid utilizing bacteria (bacteria which can break down lactic acid). You are in metabolic acidosis. I strongly disagree with the addition of Lactobacillus GG. This bacteria generates lactic acid. Your doctor's associate must think that you have purely D-Lactate poisoning. What I have found is that any form of lactic acid is not what a chronic fatigue patient wants, D-Lactate, or L-Lactate. L-Lactate can be metabolized by humans unlike D-Lactate, but when concentrations of any lactic acid producing bacteria overpower the lactic acid utilizing bacteria (like in your lab result), the extra lactic acid of any form will acidify the hell out of your guts and burden your organs with H+ ions (acidity).

    Hence the shallow breathing and the frequent urination and the PH imbalance issues seen in most CFS patients.... I'm telling you guys THIS is the ultimate CFS problem.

    Mutaflor is a great idea which I am ordering.
     
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  12. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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  13. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Is it possible to do the Bioscreen test in US?
     
  14. Tony

    Tony Still working on it all..

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    Maybe. But Bioscreen in Melbourne require the sample to reach them within 48 hrs. They provide the sample kit, how to etc. Email is customerservice@bioscreenmedical.com.au

    You may not really need to use them? In the US there's another lab that Prof De Meirleir uses (he used Bioscreen for Aust patients) which I think is Diagnos-techs? Hopefully someone in the US will help out here..:)
     
  15. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Was that the GI Effects Profile? If yes, then I would say that the results you got from this one, in my opinion, are "better". Otherwise, with other tests, the different species just continue to grow and die at somewhat unpredictable rates. Do you still have the results for the Metametrix test?
     
  16. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    If I am not mistaken, Genova and Metametrix are different. While Genova uses culture-based methods, Metametrix uses DNA PCR technology. The latter is way better.
     
  17. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Diagnos-techs does another useful test but KDM prescribes both the RedLabs metagenomics (similar to the metamatrix I think) and the Diagnos-techs. I think they test in different ways.

    Sushi
     
  18. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Tony ,Sushi, and Nanonug, thank you so much for the info. I will definitely check these labs.
     
  19. Peter

    Peter

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    Hi Everyone,

    This is just an update to let people know how I went.

    Well, the antibiotic treat (Erythromycin) actually made things worse. So in my humble opinion, I don't this was a great idea.

    My gut was really playing up, indigestion, aching, energy levels real low, aching muscles, headaches and so on.

    I've been taking the Mutaflor (1 tablet 100mg) each morning for about 7 weeks now. For the first few weeks I did not see any real difference.

    I also took the Lactobacillus for about 7 weeks, I never really noticed any difference.

    However, for the last 4 weeks I've been on this program called GAPS or Gut and Psychology Syndrome. It's a program based on the Specific Carbohydrates Diet (SCD). GAPS was developed by a Russian Neurologist and Nutritionist called Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride. http://gaps.me .. highly recommend her books. Eye openers!!!

    The idea is to heal the gut over a period of up to 2 years by slowly following a program (somewhat flexible according to your body's needs). Once the Gut is healed alot of stress is taken off the body!

    She used it to heal her child of Autism and now the program is used all over the world to treat Gut/Mind related problems such as Autism, ADHD, Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, Depression, Schizophrenia and ... Chronic Fatigue.

    My results so far have been encouraging. The gut related problems have abated and energy levels are slightly better, sleep is better and my sinus is draining - first time in years!!!. The wierd thing is that by eliminating fibre the stools situation has actually improved !!!!.

    But it's still very early days... but at least I now have a plan of action.

    Basically, I gave up grains (I've been gluten free for ages), fibre, sugar (being do this for a while), starches (potatoes etc) and working my way through the program. I started off in a very haphazard way until I could wrap my head around the whole concept.

    Starting off with heaps of meat and fish base soups, heaps of non-starchy vegetables (well-cooked), eggs, ghee (homemade), fermented veges (sauerkraut my fav thus far), stewed fruit, soaked seeds.

    You also need heaps of good animal FAT and No vegetable oils (except for Extra Virgin Olive Oil - used to drizzle on things - NOT cooked).

    I now know that our adrenals need FAT... cholesterol to make hormones!!!

    According to GAPS animal FAT is GOOD!

    I've also been building up the doses of a probiotic they recommend (Bio Kult), currently up 2 caps in the morn and 2 caps at night. Also I’ve just added fermented Cod Liver Oil (for Vitamin A). I’m also taking HCL and Pepsin for digestion.

    I also have kept up my other supps for the moment .. let just see how thing go eh!

    I tried some homemade Yoghurt the other day (but I took three teaspoons instead of building up slowly) and suffered very bad die-off.

    Anyway, this is an update.

    As for the tests, I tend to think that they could be a waste of time!
    But who knows???


    Peter
     
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  20. LucyS

    LucyS

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    Hello Peter - could I ask how long you persevered with the Erythromycin for until you gave it up??
    You are aware that indigestion, gut pain, nausea, diarrhea, headaches etc are all fairly expected side effects of taking Erythro, even for people that don't have CFS or gut bug overgrowth problems!
    The 7 weeks of Mutaflor, having increased your very low levels of E.Coli may be the reason your gut is now feeling better?? - it would take some time for the gut to repopulate and balance out after the ABs and E.Coli?
    So is it possible that the ABs and Mutaflor may have lead to your improving gut, by knocking out some of the Lactococcos overgrowth you said was probably killing you! and a replenished supply of E.Coli,
    or, are you convinced that the improvement is ONLY due to the GAPS diet?
    Would you be having a retest any time soon at Bioscreen to assess any changes - the retest is much cheaper if done within 12months!
    Thanks, and Good luck on your continued journey!
     
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