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Low dose naltrexone vs. kratom

Messages
4
I have classic EDS so probably represent a small subpopulation on this forum (unless everyone with CFS has undiagnosed collagen mutations). Fatigue and background pain levels are unacceptable and have been for some time. I have tried tons of supplements and medications in the past with minimal success. I haven't tried LDN or kratom

LDN requires a scripti but kratom does not. I like the background mechanism for LDN better and generally feel skeptical about any herbal supplement touted as a miracle cure for fatigue and pain. But that being said, I would like to hear from people about both. It would be great if you have compared them. I am still leaning towards LDN but am open to ideas.
 

Tunguska

Senior Member
Messages
516
I took kratom for some very bad chronic pain (not EDS). It worked enough to get me through the day, but only if I took high doses where I was constantly nauseous and throwing up. It has a ceiling.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
I have classic EDS so probably represent a small subpopulation on this forum (unless everyone with CFS has undiagnosed collagen mutations). Fatigue and background pain levels are unacceptable and have been for some time. I have tried tons of supplements and medications in the past with minimal success. I haven't tried LDN or kratom
I have EDS and I think quite a few people here also have it. I have regular pain from things slipping out of place. I also have taken LDN for years, and while it does help me with ME/CFS symptoms it does nothing for my EDS pain because that comes from things slipping out of alignment. I have never tried Kratom.
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,664
I have been using Kratom on and off, and find that it does take the pain down a notch or two, but you have to be just as wary of becoming dependent as you would with opioids. Here's a link which explains the different types of Kratom and their affects: http://sagewisdom.org/kratomguide.html
I have tried the Bali and the Red Vein, and find that the former is mildly stimulating while the latter makes me very sleepy. It may effect other people differently, however.
 
Messages
53
I have been utilizing Kratom on and off for many years, since 2009, so I have quite a bit of experience with it. Unfortunately its effects became drastically weaker since I got CFS in around 2011-2012. I suspect some of my receptors have been damaged by autoantibodies because I'm also immune to the effects of classic opiates (and so if my wife, who also has CFS, which is quite a coincidence).

As far as effects, I don't have pain so I can't comment on that. For me it helps with depression and anxiety. It used to help with sleep too but that has disappeared. I take it as needed. Kratom contains some of the same alkaloids as Cat's Claw, chiefly Rhynchophylline, so there is a good chance that it is also an immunomodulator. There is anecdotal evidence (unfortunately good studies are very rare for Kratom) that people taking Kratom daily get sick much less often with flu and colds. There is also pretty good (again anecdotal) evidence that it's very safe, since there are a lot of people on the Kratom forums who have been consuming it daily for many years and had bloodwork done that consistently came out perfect.

In regards to the risk for addiction that some bring up as a reason for concern, frankly you are more likely to get addicted to coffee than to Kratom, as long as you choose PLAIN LEAF and stay away from EXTRACTS. This is very important! The Kratom plant contains a very unique makeup of alkaloids some of which are agonists at opioid receptors and some are antagonists. So when utilizing the leaf with its full spectrum of alkaloids, not only the potential for addiction is very minimal (and who would get addicted to it probably is one of those people with a certain brain chemistry that makes them get addicted to most things, food, coffee, work, adrenaline, etc), but the tolerance doesn't really increase easily. It's pretty common for people who take reasonable amounts of Kratom to stay on the same dose for months or years without it losing efficacy. One more thing about plain leaf is that it has an anti-abuse mechanisms built-in: if you try to take too much you will get very nauseous and vomit, therefore eliminating the excess. And if you try to redose often, it progressively loses efficacy, so you can't keep taking it constantly.

Extracts, on the other hand, are bad news, because they don't contain the full spectrum of alkaloids and most importantly they allow people to consume much more of a given alkaloid than they ever could if they were working with plain leaves. I mean, everybody knows coffee is safe to consume, but start taking pure caffeine pills and see how quickly things go downhill, both in terms of addiction and harmful effects!

Bottom line is, Kratom is very safe as long as plain leaf is used and extracts are avoided. Don't expect any miracles but it might help with some issues. If you are especially interested in opioid antagonists, the stem and vein material is probably your best bet. If you have specific questions drop a message. Additionally the Kratom Forum is a wonderful place to learn about Kratom, and it also has an area with approved vendors from whom you are guaranteed to get high quality stuff at honest prices.

http://thekratomforum.com

BTW the DEA tried to ban Kratom a few months back and there was an uproar (a lot of people taking Kratom have chronic pain or are recovering addicts for whom Kratom saved their lives). Now the situation is unclear and we are waiting for a ruling. I'm saying this because if you ever hear about Kratom in the news in case an agency tries to ban it again, please consider contributing (with petitions or letters to reps) to fight whatever nonsense the agencies will come up with. There are a lot of people who, like us CFSers, suffered a lot and had no help from the medical community, and found a solution in Kratom. They deserve to not have that taken away from them!
 

Basilico

Florida
Messages
948
@3mp0w3r , where are you located? (you might want to put your general region or country below your screen name). I'm in the US, and have ordered LDN via a reputable online pharmacy without a rx. It's not a scheduled substance, so there's no reason you'd need a prescription if you wanted to try it.

I personally did not have any effects from taking LDN; however, I have a strong suspicion that my endorphin receptors (in addition to some others) are non-functional.

My husband started taking LDN but had to discontinue it fairly quickly because it consistently gave him insomnia (which is something he is prone to already, but trouble sleeping is a fairly common side effect).
 
Messages
9
Does anyone know if kratom could act as low dose naltrexone? Would it be the same mechanism by turning off opioid receptors temporarily which results in an endorphin increase?
 
Messages
53
Hard to say, but if you wanted to test that hypothesis your best bet would be "Stem and Vein" Kratom, because the opioid receptor antagonist alkaloids seem to be found mostly in the stem and vein material. I know a lot of people used stem and vein Kratom to lower their tolerance to opiates.
 
Messages
53
You can take both. I have done so, but in the end I avoid kratom, i do not believe it contributes much to health. If I did not have access to tylenol3 to take once in awhile on a bad day where I just need relief for a few hours, I would keep kratom around simply because it is an easily avalable opioid. But i really do not reccomend using it everyday, but there is no reason you cannot combine it with LDN. There are some minor caveats but it is a decent combo, I can explain more if you have questions, but basically kratom during day, then dose LDN before bed, this will also keep you from developing a physical dependence.

And yea kratom is habit forming. I used it for a year straight and tapered off, it was easier than harder opioids but there was still some withdrawal, dont believe the hype that it is non addictive or less than coffee. It has some special properties like built in antagonism but it will still kick your butt if you get complacent. I have been off it 45 days and only now starting to feel over it.


I would equate it to a fractional step below a codeine addiction, and worse in some ways as far as the head fuck when you try to quit it. There are also problems with contaminants, liver damage, hairloss, hormone disruptiom etc. It is just too unsafe imo as an unregulated untested supplement. It is also disgusting to ingest. I am so glad i am finally off it.

The thing i should say is, when I was vigilant and took LDN regularly with kratom, there was barely any physical dependence for how much kratom i was dosing everyday. I got complacent and stopped LDN and kept on kratom and it was amazing the difference in how dependent i got quickly, if you are a good self experimenter you can work out a very decent protocol to avoid heavy addiction, it would work with any other opioid + LDN. You can also do ULDN with kratom, there are some pros and cons to that too. Just ask and i can explain it in depth for you if you would like. I did alot of experimenting and learning with LDN and ULDN combined with opioids, in the end i decided to just keep off opioids because i learn to manage pain without, and i still occassionally take LDN now and if i ever take a dose of codeine or oxy etc i always combine it with ULDN. There are some posts on drug forums you can google "kratom and LDN" for a good explanation. I have seen heroin addicts use both ULDN/LDN (i used it myself in the depths of my street drug addiction to lower my use, that is how i learned about it) to get their use down, and also use kratom after coming off methadone to ease the transition to sober life, or use it when they could not cop drugs to lessen withdrawals etc. My story with opioids is complicated and i learned alot about these various drugs but in the end i feel happier and healhier off of them. Opioids really stand in the way of vitality, but i understand people needing them, i would never deny anyone their right to relief from both physical and emotional pain. So feel free to ask for more info. But i personally resent the online kratom commu ity who lie to others and themselves saying it is non addictive etc, that is a straight up lie. Go read the quittingkratom reddit forum and see how much misery addiction to it can cause. It is like any other opioid.
 
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Messages
53
I'm sorry, but saying that "kratom is just like any other opioid" is completely inaccurate. Just because YOU got addicted and experienced withdrawals, doesn't mean that it does that for everyone. In fact it's quite the opposite. There are a lot more people who used kratom to wean themselves off REAL opiates, than people who got addicted to kratom and suffered because of withdrawals.

I, myself, have been taking kratom on and off since 2009. I can take it every day for several months and then stop cold turkey and experience zero withdrawals. I have stopped taking kratom for very long periods of time like more than a year, and recently have started taking it more frequently because it just started helping with PEM and body aches (which it didn't used to do before, but we all know how with our disease things keep changing).

I also have been taking the same dosage with the same strain for I don't know how many years. How many REAL opiates do you know of that you can just keep taking the same dosage and you don't develop tolerance and the need to take more? That alone should tell you that kratom is very different compared to real opiates.

I know of several people who got in trouble with kratom, and guess what? They were all taking quite large amounts, often including extracts, and often multiple times a day. Should we also start blaming restaurants because people get fatter after eating high calorie foods meal after meal?

Sure, if you have a very addictive personality, kratom could became a problem. And so can pretty much everything else pleasant in life. If you avoid kratom extracts like the plague they are, find an amount that works for you and STICK to that amount instead of increasing it, you are gonna be fine.

Lastly, for the purpose of this thread, I suggested stem and vein kratom, because that's where the antagonists are. That is DIFFERENT than regular kratom leaf. Now, I've been on the kratom forums since 2009 and NOT ONCE have I ever heard of someone who got addicted and/or experienced withdrawals from stem and vein kratom. And frankly, I do not believe it's even possible.
 
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Basilico

Florida
Messages
948
I'm enduin's wife and I can corroborate what he's saying. We met ~10 years ago, and he had been using kratom off and on even before we met. The first few years I knew him he used it occasionally, but totally stopped for long stretches off time. In the past few years, he takes it for a few weeks or months, usually stops for a while, then continues. He has never once demonstrated any addiction or withdrawal behaviors whatsoever.

My mother is a recovering alcoholic, so I am intimately aware of what addiction, dependence, and withdrawal look like. Along with those behaviors come delusions of self-control and secretive behavior - none of which even remotely describe enduin's behavior. We are together pretty much 24/7 in a tiny apartment, so there is zero chance he is using - or abusing - anything without my knowledge.

After he's taken kratom for a few weeks or months, he typically stops for a period of time. Not for any other reason than he doesn't like to get into the habit of taking something all the time or every day. He does with all supplements, vitamins, and probiotics. Were he taking something that were actually addictive in some form, I would not expect him to so willingly (and easily) stop using it spontaneously.

I feel so confident about the safety of kratom based on his experience with it over the past ~10 years, that I would very gladly recommend using it to any friend or family member. I would never say something like that about anything that was potentially addictive.
 
Messages
53
I'm sorry, but saying that "kratom is just like any other opioid" is completely inaccurate. Just because YOU got addicted and experienced withdrawals, doesn't mean that it does that for everyone. In fact it's quite the opposite. There are a lot more people who used kratom to wean themselves off REAL opiates, than people who got addicted to kratom and suffered because of withdrawals.

I, myself, have been taking kratom on and off since 2009. I can take it every day for several months and then stop cold turkey and experience zero withdrawals. I have stopped taking kratom for very long periods of time like more than a year, and recently have started taking it more frequently because it just started helping with PEM and body aches (which it didn't used to do before, but we all know how with our disease things keep changing).

I also have been taking the same dosage with the same strain for I don't know how many years. How many REAL opiates do you know of that you can just keep taking the same dosage and you don't develop tolerance and the need to take more? That alone should tell you that kratom is very different compared to real opiates.

I know of several people who got in trouble with kratom, and guess what? They were all taking quite large amounts, often including extracts, and often multiple times a day. Should we also start blaming restaurants because people get fatter after eating high calorie foods meal after meal?

Sure, if you have a very addictive personality, kratom could became a problem. And so can pretty much everything else pleasant in life. If you avoid kratom extracts like the plague they are, find an amount that works for you and STICK to that amount instead of increasing it you are gonna be fine.

Lastly, for the purpose of this thread, I suggested stem and vein kratom, because that's where the antagonists are. That is DIFFERENT than regular kratom leaf. Now, I've been on the kratom forums since 2009 and NOT ONCE have I ever heard of someone who got addicted and/or experienced withdrawals from stem and vein kratom. And frankly, I do not believe it's even possible.

I gave my experience, stated facts (is kratom an opioid or not?) Am i not allowed to give a differing opinion based on my own experience? The OP asked about kratom, not your specific stem and vein type.

Go to the quittingkratom forum and see countless people who are struggling and have struggled with kratom.

Fwiw, i can take kratom, codiene, oxycodone, etc all infrequently and not get a habit, especially wih naltrexone. Kratom is a little weaker and safer from OD but it is irrelevant at low infrequent doses. It is still untested, unregulated, known to cause liver problems in some. I also never mentioned or used extracts so not sure why you allude to this. Kratom can be habit forming, and it does cause withdrawals with regular consumption. The withdrawal period is somewhat tougher in certain ways compared to a drug like oxy or codeine because the various alkaloids have differing effects and halflives, including some unresearched effects on seratonin systems. It is also less severe in other ways like the opioid aspect and that falls in line with what narcotic effects you can experience from it. Just because it is safer does not mean it has no negative effects, or that i cant be truthful and talk about them. The DEA is not going to read my post and all of a sudden take it away from you. Im almost 2 months clean off kratom and really thankful for that.
 
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Messages
53
I'm enduin's wife and I can corroborate what he's saying. We met ~10 years ago, and he had been using kratom off and on even before we met. The first few years I knew him he used it occasionally, but totally stopped for long stretches off time. In the past few years, he takes it for a few weeks or months, usually stops for a while, then continues. He has never once demonstrated any addiction or withdrawal behaviors whatsoever.

My mother is a recovering alcoholic, so I am intimately aware of what addiction, dependence, and withdrawal look like. Along with those behaviors come delusions of self-control and secretive behavior - none of which even remotely describe enduin's behavior. We are together pretty much 24/7 in a tiny apartment, so there is zero chance he is using - or abusing - anything without my knowledge.

After he's taken kratom for a few weeks or months, he typically stops for a period of time. Not for any other reason than he doesn't like to get into the habit of taking something all the time or every day. He does with all supplements, vitamins, and probiotics. Were he taking something that were actually addictive in some form, I would not expect him to so willingly (and easily) stop using it spontaneously.

I feel so confident about the safety of kratom based on his experience with it over the past ~10 years, that I would very gladly recommend using it to any friend or family member. I would never say something like that about anything that was potentially addictive.

And then in your post you assert krarom causes no withdrawals and give no qualifiers. My mom can take tramadol and t3 and not get withdrawals, because she takes an infrequent low dose. ...different people use different amounts and types of kratom, and stem and leaf is not what people mean when they talk about kratom powder.

I took kratom powder for a year at varying doses. I suffered withdrawals acute and extended when I quit and everytime i did a taper down, it has taken me almost 2 months to feel back to baseline. Kratom can be habit forming and addictive and is similar to other opioids in he withdrawal it causes, but it is safer in that it doesnt cause respiratory depression, but also risky in other ways due to the unregulated nature, possible contaminants, liver, hormone, hairloss, etc problems it can cause. The physical withdrawals are mild copies of what you get from regular opioids, but the mental headfuck is right up there with stronger stuff. That is my experience. I am not the only one.

People should be thankful when someone posts a differing experience truthfully because it allows you to make a better informed decision.
 
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panckage

Senior Member
Messages
777
Location
Vancouver, BC
Certainly experiences vary.
For the 3+ years I have been taking kratom. I take it 2 out of every 3 days. My dose has never been raised and I have never experienced any withdrawal/tolerance symptoms when stopping for a few days.

I would like to hear of someone taking an opiate who has had the same experience as that!

Also as far as I can tell at my dosing level I have found no interaction between LDN and kratom. LDN does precipitate opioid withdrawal symptoms in general but I guess since I have never taken kratom often enough to have a tolerance it doesn't seem surprising that I haven't noticed an interaction

Note: when taking kratom I would take it 4+ hours after LDN, although I did accidentally take them closer together but I did not notice an interaction


Anyways kratom still works for me andis the by far the best option I have found for pain/gentle energy
 
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Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
Note: several posts in this thread have been edited to remove comments about other posters. Please remember--comment only on the content of a person's post, not on the poster him/herself.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
In great pain and considering kratom. Took it pre illness and early on but now am weaker and worried it might cause autonomic or blood pressure issues. Thoughts?
 

cigana

Senior Member
Messages
1,095
Location
UK
Certainly experiences vary.
For the 3+ years I have been taking kratom. I take it 2 out of every 3 days. My dose has never been raised and I have never experienced any withdrawal/tolerance symptoms when stopping for a few days.

I would like to hear of someone taking an opiate who has had the same experience as that!

Also as far as I can tell at my dosing level I have found no interaction between LDN and kratom. LDN does precipitate opioid withdrawal symptoms in general but I guess since I have never taken kratom often enough to have a tolerance it doesn't seem surprising that I haven't noticed an interaction

Note: when taking kratom I would take it 4+ hours after LDN, although I did accidentally take them closer together but I did not notice an interaction


Anyways kratom still works for me andis the by far the best option I have found for pain/gentle energy
Hi Package,
What strain and dose do you take? Thanks. I've been doing a lot of research online and it looks like tolerance/addiction are more of a problem with the higher doses. I am able to get very beneficial effects with lower doses.
 

cigana

Senior Member
Messages
1,095
Location
UK
I also have been taking the same dosage with the same strain for I don't know how many years. How many REAL opiates do you know of that you can just keep taking the same dosage and you don't develop tolerance and the need to take more? That alone should tell you that kratom is very different compared to real opiates.
What dose/schedule and strain are you taking? Thanks
 

Basilico

Florida
Messages
948
And then in your post you assert krarom causes no withdrawals and give no qualifiers. My mom can take tramadol and t3 and not get withdrawals, because she takes an infrequent low dose. ...different people use different amounts and types of kratom, and stem and leaf is not what people mean when they talk about kratom powder.

I can't make any sense of this. I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with something or wanting to clarify something or expect some kind of a response. If so, please let me know.