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Low Dose Methylfolate Detrimental?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by RachelW, Nov 10, 2013.

  1. RachelW

    RachelW

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    Hi all,

    I'm new to this forum, but not methylation. I'm very familiar with Fredd and Rich's work, and am actually posting in the hopes of hearing from Freddd, especially because his of our shared potassium issues.

    I tried to start methylation back in March of this year. I have CFS, histadelia, autoimmune diseases, MCS, IBS, etc. After about 5mcg B12, my potassium dropped so rapidly that within six hours I was unable to focus my vision, had severe tachycardia, I passed out and woke up paralyzed. Thanks to Freddd I was aware that potassium could be an issue, however I had no idea it would hit me so hard, so quickly. I passed out with my bottle of potassium and popped a handful every time I woke up, slowly regaining my strength.

    I tried B12 a second time, but this time I went into the ER so I could catch it in blood work. My potassium has gone from 4.3 (after supplementing with horse pills) to 3.6 within about two hours. They wanted to discharge me but I begged them to retest me in another two hours. They agreed and my potassium had fallen again to something like 3.2. I was admitted and monitored but they wouldn't accept the fact that it was B12 causing this.

    Anyway, after some near death experiences caused by histamines and adrenal insufficiency, I obviously had to put methylation on the back burner. I just recently started it again.

    I began with 1mcg B12 and doubled this daily until around 60mcg methylcobalamin/day. At this point, inflammation and histamined were sky high. As per Freddd, this was likely a folate insufficiency. I took 50mcg Quatrefolic and felt much better.

    I've taken 50mcg Quatrefolic (in the form of Jigsaw magnesium SRT which contains 2mcg methylcobalamin per 50mcg Quatrefolic) for a couple days. It seemed to help initially. I tried 50mcg methylfolate:15mcg methylcobalamin today and it's inflammation/histadelia central. Obviously, I can't do the B12. Or I need a lot more methylfolate:B12.

    I do have MTHFR C677T, normal serum B12 (means nothing, I know) but also normal urine MMA. My histadelia has become unbearable since I started eating vegetables. Because of all this, I believe my biggest issue is a folate deficiency, which seems different to most people.

    Freddd - if you're out there! What the heck do I do? Increase methylfolate slowly, while keeping an eye on potassium? I'm in a rough patch because nothing seems to be helping anymore. I've got high blood pressure headaches, joint paint, muscle weakness, muscle stiffness, extreme fatigue, puffy dry eyes - I get all these symptoms with high histamines just before anaphylaxis, and methylation breaks down histamines so I know there's a block. Have i created some donut hole with my tiny methylfolate doses? It seems like now that I've started, I can't just stop and go back, because the histamines don't stop rising anymore, so I have to keep supplementing but I'm not sure what the hell to take. I just know SAM-e is no longer helping, nor is B12. I am taking 50-70meq potassium daoily and so far my serum is looking good. (Trying to keep it ~4.1. It seems to drop ~0.4 in serum with each 50mcg folate dose.)

    Would love to workshop this with someone who is on the outside looking in, and can see things more clearly.

    Rachel
    25 Years Old
    CFS • MCS • Histadelia • IBS-C • Autoimmune • Secondary AI
     
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    @RachelW

    To draw Freddd's attention to your post, tag him: @Freddd

    Sushi
     
    RachelW likes this.
  3. RachelW

    RachelW

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    Good to know, thank you @Sushi :)
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rachael,

    As you know this is exceedingly serious business. I can only guess here and mention several possibilities. Are you on any diuretics? Eating vegetables can be causing paradoxical folate deficiency. It can block methylfolate in some unknown percentage of people, like me. Are you taking any b1, b2 and b3?

    Now let me mention that potassium usage is not in a linear relationship to amount of folate. Folate induced healing turns on in a layer and then starts robbing from Tom, Dick, Harry and Peter to fill the need for Paul (a metaphor). You may already be using all the potassium you would be even with 15 mg of l-methylfolate. More MeCbl, AdoCbl and l-methylfolate are much more likely to get started getting rid of inflammation and histamine in hours than to increase potassium much. THIS IS JUST MY BEST GUESS.

    Have you had your urine tested for excess potassium? Without the AdoCbl, (and l-carnitine fumarate) for that matter, you might be in a methylation deadlock with lack of ATP. And it might depends upon WHERE the functions break down whether and how much potassium might be excessively called for. I would say you need BOTH AdoCbl (directly deals with inflammation, zinc is major cofactor). In starting up methylation low potassium is usually happens first and is corrected. Then the low folate.

    For me, who had blockage from both folic acid, folinic acid and veggie folates, I had to take 4,000 mcg of Metafolin at a time to have a chance of controlling the paradoxical folate deficiency. If I were measuring out put 50mcg at a time I would have had no chance at all. Your body is starving to death and breaking down is what it looks like to me. Just like mine did. Are your muscles atrophying yet? Good luck. I'll keep an eye out.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2013
  5. RachelW

    RachelW

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    Hi @Freddd

    Thank you so much for responding.

    1. No, I'm not on diuretics.
    2. I've been taking all B's separately - Benfotiamine, B2, Niacinamide, P5P & Biotin.
    3. Eating vegetables definitely makes me worse, but I'm in a tough spot because I can't eat meat currently with the histamine issue. I've been eating lots of potatoes the last month, to say the least.
    4. Yes, my muscles started atrophying at an alarming rate last year.

    The above quote is exactly what I was attempting to ask! Because I feel I desperately need it, but was afraid the potassium need was proportional to folate dosage. I'm going to cautiously attempt a higher dose tomorrow, or tonight if this histamine stuff doesn't calm down enough for me to sleep.

    I've got adenosylcobalamin on order as per your recommendations on other threads, so I will be starting that as soon as possible.

    Methylation deadlock due to lack of ATP sounds probable; I'm on hydrocortisone just to get me through laying around all day. I have carnitine fumarate so I'll start that on an empty stomach tomorrow, as well as increase methylfolate dosage, and I'll let you know how I go.

    Thank you for the peace of mind - I will be cautious.

    Rachel
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rachael,

    A couple of thinhgs, CoQ10 can cause high blood pressure in early methylation. B1, B2, B3 each should be less than 30-50 mg per day total. More of any or all might overdrive the need for potassium and folate part of the equation as far as a number of us can tell from experience.
     
  7. RachelW

    RachelW

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    I am not taking CoQ10 because I'd read your warning; I didn't know about the Bs! And I will keep that in mind tomorrow when compoundimg them. I think I have definitely been taking more than that. Thanks @Freddd !

    Rachel
     
  8. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Hi Rachel, I also have severe histamine reactions and adrenal insuffiency has landed me in the hospital a couple of times. I'm sending you a PM in the hopes that we can compare notes.
     
    RachelW likes this.
  9. RachelW

    RachelW

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    Hi @Freddd

    Here with an update. I've started taking 1000mcg folate about 4 times a day, with very little B12 - ~24mcg methylcobalamin. I'll add the B12 tomorrow perhaps, I've just been trying to gauge folate reaction and histamines.

    The 1000mcg folate has helped with histamine reactions considerably, however my blood pressure is going up to 180/115 lying down after taking it. Is this from inflammation? My potassium is fine, my pulse is fine, but my blood pressure skyrockets. My normal BP is 125/80.

    The symptoms I get are antsy/racing feeling (others may call it anxiety but I'm certainly not anxious), bit of pressure in head (understandable with the bp).

    I will start more omega 3, curcumin, vitamin c and selenium tomorrow to try and combat inflammation.

    Any insights as to why this is happening or if it is normal would be greatly appreciated.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rachael,

    I can't tell for sure but tachycardia is a b12 deficiency symptom. And that may be AdoCbl, the distinction has never been made. It might be that the cardiac muscle mitochondria desperately needs AdoCbl. I am just guessing. Nobody else I know has tried it this way or if they did that had bad neurological results, SACD.
     
  11. RachelW

    RachelW

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    @Freddd

    I wanted to clarify: the crazy high blood pressure was due to metabolic acidosis, caused by too high chloride intake (potassium, magnesium and sodium) as well as overhydration. This was resolved by stopping chloride supplements and taking some sodium bicarb in water. This wasn't an effect of methylation after all.

    I upped my Metafolin to 3200mcg every 3 hours and I was able to tolerate meat today without a histamine response - first meat I've eaten in over a month!

    I am not able to take B12 without getting a serious histamine response. I believe I have the opposite problem to most - too little folate, and B12 overdrives methylation and uses up what little folate I have. Maybe after a few days of high dose folate I will be able to tolerate it.

    My hydrocortisone dose actually feels too high at night now... hope this continues. :)

    P.s. I was afraid of your protocol last year when I found it, Freddd. I went full Yasko instead and regret it gravely. Thanks for all your work.
     
  12. RachelW

    RachelW

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    Hi @Freddd - I'm back to pick your brain. I mentioned the acute high blood pressure episode last time, correlating it with methylation, before assuming it was high chloride intake and stopping chloride supplements.

    However, I've had several more bouts of acute high blood pressure episodes (180/115) that occur after eating "acid forming" foods, and respond to bicarb therapies, namely potassium citrate (Sodium bicarb is a hit or miss). I've been to the hospital several times now with these episodes and serum potassium has been fine - 3.9-4.3.

    Upon reflection of my medical history and lab results, especially the most recent organic acid test indicating possible rickets, I've finally realized I've had chronic mild acidosis for quite some time (years), perhaps attributed to Sjogren's Syndrome. However, upon starting methylation, these severe blood pressure/ acidotic episodes have commenced and I have no idea why. I was hoping you had a theory?

    The only thing I could guess is that the potassium that would normally buffer the blood is being used up in healing, resulting in a temporary acidotic state? Super bummed because my histamine issues seem so much better starting folate, but this is getting too dangerous to continue.

    I'm trying to get in to see a nephrologist but I highly doubt he'll have anything to offer, if he even agrees to meet with me.
     
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rachael,

    Right off there is CoQ10 as a possibility. It causes high blood pressure within 2 hours of taking it when one is starting methylation. The cause of that is unknown. High blood pressure can also be a low potassium sign, but usually there are some other more specific additional symptoms. The pattern of symptoms, the groups, tell a whole lot more than any 1 or 2 items.

    Serum potassium of 3.9-4.3 is right in the danger area. As one person reporte4 on one of the potassium threads that she went in with it at 4.2 or 4.3, within 2 hours to was down to 3.5 and another 2-3 hours 3.2 or some such. The SERUM potassium can drop like a rock, cause symptoms and be up at "normal" before it is tested. Mine can cause problems any time it is 4.3 or lower. It may be the rate of fall exceeding the rate it can pull out of tissues so tissue levels can be entirely normal.

    Low b12 and low folate can also cause high blood pressure. They don't normally cause high blood pressure but the deficiency does. For instance, a lack of AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate can cause tachycardia and possible high blood pressure because the mitochondria are not turning out the amount of ATP needed. Low folate, low AdoCbl and low LCF can cause edema and congestive heart failure and the high blood pressure that goes with it.

    Have you so focused on "methylation" that you have ignored half the problem? Are you starting AdoCbl at the same time as Metafolin and MeCbl? What I will tell you that trying to take bits and pieces of it here and there and mix and match with other ideas about it is that the mashup almost never works out.

    It may be the sum total of all the things you are taking that don't work together. Having such a severe folate (and b12s) deficiency will make you sicker and sicker.

    I don't know what your answers are, but I can point at things that almost NEVER work. When I have gotten so badly out of balance I have had to go back to basics and retitrate until I found what was screwing things up. It came down to too much B3, then too much b2 and then even 100mg additional of B1 was too ,much and caused problems. Some people have found combinations of herbs to be a problem.

    So if you use just this below as a checklist, how many places could you be going wrong? One of the most hidden is a little NAC here and a little something else and some whey and before one knows it one is maintained in partial methylation block and methyltrap by glutathione. I don't know that your problems are on the list below, but I would like to be able to add them. I had to solve every one of these to make it work for me.

    THE 95% REASONS B12 AND FOLATE THERAPIES FAIL
    Version 2.0 - 03/10/11, Version 2.1 - 05/08/11. Version 3.0 – 10/25/2012, Version 3.1 10/26/2012, Version 11/05/2012 3.2
    1) They take an inactive b12, either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12. The research validating their use was primarily for reducing blood cell size in Pernicious Anemia, keeping the serum b12 level over 300pg/ml at the end of the period between injections. They make a statistically significant effect that can be seen in lab tests in a significant percentage of people compared to placebo. They do not heal most damage done by active b12 deficiencies and have little or no effect on the vast majority of symptoms. They may even block active b12 from receptor sites hindering the effects of real b12. They both cause a keyhole effect of having only a very limited amount (estimated at 10-30mcg/day) that can actually be bound and converted to active forms. They in no way increase the level of unbound active cobalamins which appear required for most healing. They do nothing beneficial in a substantial percentage of people (20-40%) while giving the illusion that the problem is being treated and if it doesn’t work, oh well, that’s the accepted therapy. There is no dose proportionate healing with these inactive b12s because it all has to go through this keyhole. Some people are totally incapable of converting these to active forms because they lack the enzymes or ATP
    2) They take active b12 as an oral tablet reducing absorption to below 1%. A 1000mcg active b12 oral tablet might bind as much as 10mcg of b12. Again the b12 has to be squeezed through a keyhole that limits the amount and is subject to binding problems in the person whether genetic or acquired.3. They take a sublingual tablet of active b12 and chew it or slurp it down quickly reducing absorption back to that same 1% and limited to binding capacity. With sublingual tablets absorption is proportionate to time in contact with tissues. I performed a series of absorption tests comparing sublingual absorption to injection via hypersensitive response and urine colorimetry.
    3) Of the many brands of sublingual methylb12 only some are very effective. Some are completely ineffective and some have a little effect.
    4) For injectable methylb12, if it is exposed to too much light (very little light actually is too much) it breaks down. Broken down methylb12 is hydroxyb12. It doesn’t work at healing brain/cord problems of those who have a presumed low CSF cobalamin level. That requires a flood of unbound methylb12 and adenosylb12 (2 separate deficiencies) that can enter by diffusion. Adenosylb12 from sublinguals can ride along with injected methylb12.
    5) They don’t take BOTH active b12s.
    6) They don’t take enough active b12s for the purpose.
    7) Lack of methylfolate
    8) Lack of sufficient Methylfolate, a dose can start more healing than the same dose can complete.
    9) Paradoxical Folate Deficiency - Folic acid is taken which can block at least 10 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms. Folinic acid is taken which can block at least 10-20 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms.
    10) Lack of l-carnitine fumarate (rarely ALCAR), the 4th of the Deadlock Quartet
    11) Lack of other critical cofactors.
    12) Lack of basic cofactors
    13) Glutathione, glutathione direct precursors, NAC and /or whey is taken causing what is often called "detox" while actually being induced folate and b12 deficiencies.
    14) Having many additional supplements and herbs of unknown interactions and effects.
    15) Too much B1 and/or B2 and/or B3, somewhere between 30-100mg daily (divided 2 doses) of any one or combination.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  14. caledonia

    caledonia

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    If you went full Yasko, did you get your methylation SNPs tested and do you also have functional testing of what's going on in your body? I like the Nutreval test because you can see exactly what's going on with your Kreb's cycle.
     

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