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Love and hate for vitamin B6

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gondwanaland, May 18, 2016.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This thread might add some info (or not) to the thread about pyroluria.

    A few facts from the top of my head regarding the basic knowledge about vitamin B6 (if anyone knows anything else, please add):

    It’s the backbone of Krebs cycle linking protein and carbohydrate/fat metabolism

    CellularEnergyMetabolism2.jpg
    Image Source

    • B6+ Fe + Cu = Heme

    • B6 = maturation and proliferation of lymphocytes (thus immune modulation)

    • B6/Cu + B2/Mg = protein and neurotransmitter synthesis and breakdown (amino acid metabolism- it actually extracts energy from our food) - B6 synthesizes serotonin from Tryptophan, and breaks down diamines DAO (B6+Cu) and B2 breaks down monoamines MAO (B2+Mg), thus vital to lower allergies.

    • B6 + Mg = B6 activates many (most? all?) activities (e.g., Mg is a powerful insulin sensitizer in the glucose metabolism) of Mg, and helps maintain Mg inside the cells. So it can shift the Ca/Mg balance towards Mg if taken in excess

    • B6 is needed to progesterone synthesis

    • B6 + vitamin D = glucose metabolism and thyroid hormone (thus increasing the need for Iodine and Selenium). Thyroid hormone has a known effect on lipid metabolism, so B6 could be indirectly implicated.

    • B6 is needed in the glycine pathway to avoid endogenous oxalate formation

    • B6 + Mg + Ca + K2 = dental health

    • Methylation of Hcy into Met (anti-oxidant protection of endothelium), sulfur metabolism via CBS

    My experience with it:

    Taking 60mg of vitamin B6 in a Bcomplex with various dosages of other Bs completely blocked B6 activation in the body (I know because I had symptoms related with the functions mentioned above, for instance alarmingly low serotonin from any tiny increase or decrease in B2 which I kept between 2 and 8mg).

    Taking 6mg of P5P daily caused me hyperthyroidism (had to stop my hormone replacement and take lots of Selenium) and serotonin syndrome (unbalance with B2 caused serotonin to build up causing migraine, anorexia/nausea, hypersalivation and rhabdomyolysis) after 10 days.

    Cleared a psoriasis-like patch in my neck, helps with dandruff (my dandruff is from histamines?!).

    Nice feeling of hands and feet warming up after a meal containing meat, chicken or fish (like the body actually making energy from B12 and iron).

    Occasional numbness (esp. arms) even taking tiny doses - taking B12 helps.

    My husband gets bacterial symptoms from P5P – cough and furunculosis which subside by increasing arginine in his diet by eating nuts – OR this is oxalate dump which stops by eating more oxalates.

    Research on it doesn't seem to consider the blocking effect of large doses of B6/absence of P5P in the supplements on its own metabolism.

    ( @dannybex perhaps you can gain some insights on your B6 problems?)

    This (Linus Pauling Institute) is probably the most extensive review on vitamin B6 online.
    B6 interactions with hormones
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
  2. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks @Gondwanaland -- that's what's so incredibly, INCREDIBLY frustrating. I know that B6 is needed, it showed up as right on the edge of being deficient on my Spectracell 4 years ago. Not sure how accurate that test is though as it showed my vitamin C to be fine, despite blatantly obvious signs of scurvy.

    Still it's needed as you say for protein metabolism, new blood cell formation (which we all need), and yet it's given me trouble every time. I have read elsewhere that some have found B12 to help as you note above, so might try that when I restart it in a week or so.

    Having said that, I'm one of those that is doubtful that 'pyroluria' is actually a real condition (as asked in that other thread). But nothing personal intended. We just agree to disagree. :)
     
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  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @dannybex that is precisely my point... I am clearly deficient in B6 too (keep loosing lean mass, been always anemic) but if I am going to take it I will need Iodine, calcium, vitamin C, lots of stuff that I don't tolerate...

    And I don't believe in pyroluria either, I think that just plain deficiency in vitamin B6 cuts it ;)
     
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  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland boron might fit into a few of the pathways from your list above that B6 is involved in.
     
  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thanks for mentioning it and please expand on that!!!

    I have been waking up in the middle of the night needing B2. And I started noticing a tingling in the parathyroids (Boron is for the parathyroid the same as Iodine is for the thyroid).

    Last night I was lured by a hi oxalate spice (clover powder) and everything was tinigling after I ingested it - adrenals, parathyroids, kidneys :ill:

    I threw away my Boron supplements a year ago when they made my parathyroids sore - back then I didn't know that I needed B2 for Boron metabolism...:rolleyes: Now I ask myself if I need to reintroduce it for B2 to work better.
     
  6. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Is anyone looking at high taurine as an indicator for functional B6 deficiency?

    I ask because I was taking 100 mg of the P-HCl form and still showed high taurine. Knowing about activation problems, I jumped by faith to P5P. My taurine came down (maybe there were other indicators, too, and I did start on the Bluebonnet multi mineral with Boron at the time) and I was able to scale back to 50 mg P5P and retain the effect.

    @Gondwanaland I am impressed that you can sense tingle in the parathyroid vs the thyroid etc!
     
  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thanks for bringing it to my attention! Perhaps my low B6 status have prevented me from tolerating Taurine supplements all this time...
    Me too :wide-eyed:
    And since you have mentioned it, and coincidentally Violeta mentioned Boron as well, I went to my journal and noticed that yesterday my dinner was Boron loaded! I think this explains the especially uncomfortable parathyroid tingling last night :eek:
     
  8. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Two or three nights ago, after taking boron consistently for about a week, in that area of my throat I was feeling twinges and could even hear a noise.

    I had to go to work 4 hours earlier than usual today, @Gondwanaland , I will get back to you on the expansion when I can think. So tired.

    PS: Love the chart!
     
  9. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    I don't quite follow the chart well enough. Wish I had taken some chemistry classes... but to be honest, I didn't because it isn't something that I'd ever be strong in... Sigh...

    BUT... I'm the one who became severely b6 toxic on low dose standard b6 ... and from what I'm hoping I'm gleaning... I have some questions. I don't tolerate P5P for any length of time but feel like I am probably functionally deficient on it. Test results are low end normal - but if B6 can block p5p pathways... I don't know that I trust the tests I was getting anyway.

    1. Dental issues - My mother who also had b6 toxicity and I both have exceptionally severe dental issues no matter how much calcium and d we take ( I can't tolerate Mg right now). To me, I'm questioning if this is the result of the poor absorption of the nutrient?

    2. Mg tolerance issues - I can't take the supplements... but am on epsom salt baths... BUT I have always had issues with citric acid. I can handle some, but not a lot. It seems like being low on b6 and Mg would possibly mean that the Krebs cycle isn't working as well for me? And if I can find a way to manage the b6 & Mg - that maybe I could tolerate more citric acid? It's in EVERYTHING, but worstly it reduces the citric fruits from my diet which I would really like to get back.

    3. I've now got gout post starting methylation, which is an excessive amount of uric acid, which (in your charts) while it starts with b6 breaking down the amino acids, it looks like B2 UPS the output of uric acid... do I reduce my B2 input (I firmly believe I'm off somewhere with the balance of b's as it is) ... and would that help reduce the uric acid levels? I'd love to be able to eat enough proteins to 'fuel' me without the pain. Purines self-cycle with a balanced pathway... so figuring out any option to bring it back into balance would be a good thing.

    4, I've also got a lot of allergies and a high response rate to new potential triggers... looks like b2 plus the B6 & Mg ... Cu is copper, right? so it seems like I really need to figure out what cofactors I can do to get the P5P & Mg up and if I do that maybe the B2 won't be jumping all over the purines? Or I can still consider lowering it.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    What best describes my feeling is "electricity". Sometimes I think it is oxalates being stirred around, lkie when I take vitamin C and get electricity in various parts of my brain :jaw-drop:
    What is low dose for you? Right now I am trying this approach.
    What are your reactions to it?
    Have you ever tried vitamin K2? There is a thread about it. I can't tolerate K2 - I think due to low B6 status. I am not sure about what happened when I tried it - it was like a (pseudo-)gout crisis with shattered glass in every joint. Today I think it was oxalate dump from my bones, or erythrocyte oxalate synthesis due to low B6. Do you follow the oxalate thread? (sorry if I asked you this before). I think for good dental health one needs B6 Mg B5 Ca vit K2, A and C. I am sure there are supplements out there combining these nutrients aiming dental health - not that you or I could tolerate them.
    Right now I can't tolerate Mg supplements due to low estrogen. I suspect Glycine is the missing link for me to take Mg again since this is an estrogenic aminoacid (I am afraid to supplement with Glycine because it gets readily converted into oxalates endogenously if one is low in B6, so I am trying bone broth with a Bcomplex). I get paralyzing joint pain (right hip and shoulder) from Mg as if the joints were calcifying.

    What is your reaction to citric acid? It is a chelator after all. It escorts oxalates out through the kidneys (helps to avoid kidney stones), but also bind to minerals like copper (and low copper migh impair B6 activity). OTOH excess iron and copper convert vitamin C into oxalates if B6 is low.

    Just recently it has been brought to my attention that morning sickness and nausea in pregnancy is due to low B6, and pregnant women with this problem do not tolerate any citrus fruits.
    In my personal experience Folate caused uric acid (oxalate?) issues. I think that B2 (if adequate amounts of B6 are being taken as well) will avoid gout problems. No doubt Folate caused an increased need for B2 and B6 in my case. What I am trying to do right now is to get enough B12 and B9 from food and supplement with a B complex with amounts LOWER than the Recommended Dietary Intake (which obvioulsly contains tiny amounts of B12 and B9 as well).
    I reacently read on a research paper that FMN (coenzymated B2) is responsible for activating B6. Have you ever tried a FMN or R5P suppelment? It could help to unblock the B6 for you. My feeling is that taking B6 in the form of P5P for about 10 days unlocked something for me, and then I got a hyperthyroid + excess serotonin scare for a few days :cautious:
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  12. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    When I take P5P, I try to take 0.25 mg and can manage to take it for a week or so... but then I run into problems... usually like a slightly worsening of my symptoms. I didn't believe someone else... but they suggested that if you smell the supplement and it turns your stomach that it's a likely culprit. After about 20 trials - if P5P smells good to me, I can take it without symptom worsening. As soon as it starts to smell bad - symptoms worsen. Stop taking it and I feel better and within a month or so it'll start smelling good to me. Same bottle... and sometimes a new brand... but multiple times exactly the same reactions. So, that's where I got it into my head that I can tolerate it for short bursts... but not long. AND that if I can find supporting factors that maybe I can improve it as it feels like I'm hitting a blocked mechanism somehow. If I could manage things - I might do better taking it every other day, or splitting the capsules but right now that's not very feasible for me.​

    Have you ever tried vitamin K2?​

    I did when I was taking calcium off and on... at one time I was on Coumadin and took calcium without it for a bit. I don't remember noticing any difference with it vs not with it... but no 'nothing' when I took D with my calcium either... But big difference with D3 oils... those I can see an improvement of energy.

    Mg​
    Mg gives me explosive diahrrea within 20 minutes (almost to the dot) after taking it. I've had three different doctors tell me that the new meds/protein shakes/etc... has such a miniscule dose that I'll be fine. I'm not ... my body says absolutely none of that should be in my body.

    What is your reaction to citric acid?
    Just recently it has been brought to my attention that morning sickness and nausea in pregnancy is due to low B6, and pregnant women with this problem do not tolerate any citrus fruits.
    I get canker sores... and I can get them really bad. Funny enough, when I was pregnant with my eldest son I CRAVED massive amounts of orange juice...and seemed to be able to tolerate it with no symptoms at all. I had mistakenly assumed I'd outgrown a childhood allergy and drank a gallon of OJ a day for the whole pregnancy. Post-pregnancy the thought of drinking OJ again made me sick just thinking about it. But I started to drink lemonaide (without knowing Countrytime Lemonaide really isn't lemons)... and eating more oranges and pineapples, etc. No reaction at all. BUT... went to a fair and had real lemonaide and had 4 glasses of it (thought I was safe) and I had canker sores in my gums, completely coating my tongue and throat and esophagus. ... Solid week of utter misery. I had not outgrown it, but apparently pregnancy changed things enough to channel the nutrients to my son and not build up.


    In my personal experience Folate caused uric acid issues. I think that B2 (if adequate amounts of B6 are being taken as well) will avoid gout problems. What I am trying to do right now is to get enough B12 and B9 from food and supplement with a B complex with amounts LOWER than the Recommended Dietary Intake (which obvioulsly contains tiny amounts of B12 and B9 as well).​

    I know I had limited gout episodes pre-Methylation treatment. And I'm not giving up methylation treatment altogether as it's SO MUCH BETTER than living without it... so I'll try to see if I can tolerate a small-dose B complex. I'd been avoiding it to avoid folic acid... and most of the b complexes with methylfolate seem to be high doses. BUT, if I have enough of the other vitamins on board, I can try looking to see if I have enough of those others going.

    I recently read on a research paper that FMN (coenzymated B2) is responsible for activating B6. Have you ever tried a FMN or R5P supplement?​
    I haven't heard of them... but will look into it. That sounds like a great thing to try.
     
  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    In my case, getting nausea from P5P meant that it was increasing my need for B2 to break down excessive serotonin.
    For me, canker sores are always related with oxalate dump.
    FMN is the new darling supplement around here at PR, unfortunately I haven't had access to it here where I live.
     
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    B6 (any of the Bs, I believe) supplementation will definetly increase the need for iodine/selenium.
     
  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This definetly sounds like low copper. My husband had similar issues:

    sensitivity to FODMAPS, citrate foods, magnesium supplements (IBSD) - however I think he is most sensitive to foods that flush copper out of the body (high in polyols/polyphenol oxidase)
    when it is extreme, his hair gets "kinky"
    can't fall asleep before 3 AM

    My symptom from zinc is instant anemia signs (muscle and bone pain) that subside immediately upon taking iron/B1.
     
  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Does anyone know anything good or bad about a B6 that is in the form pyridoxine alpha ketoglutarate?
     
  18. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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  19. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    My non professional two cents...
    I don't think pyridoxine alpha-ketoglutarate adds anything special to vitamin B6. As far as I understand it works as standard pyridoxine with the added benefit (depending on you look at it) of the alpha-ketoglutarate which is a precursor of glutamine.

    My impression is that this is marketed as a supplements for people working out at the gymn, for increased performance etc...

    Basically it would like taking 2 supplements in one (regular B6 and alpha-ketoglutarate). If you're just looking for a B6 supplement I'd go with pyridoxine or P5P, or a mix of the two.

    cheers
     
  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Thanks, Peter, I unfortunately bought it before asking, and have taken it a few times. I took it in the evening and I thought it was causing bad dreams. Maybe it's because the keto-glutarate is a precursor to glutamine. It was a lot more expensive than the mix of P5P and pyridoxine I had been using, which I will switch back to.
     
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