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long term Lyme disease infection, Immune supression, B Cell AIDS theory

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
Hi guys, I got into a discussion with someone in a forum group who seems convinced that long term neurological lyme disease infection is an illness equivalent to AIDS.

She showed me several studies and sites making broad sweeping claims, with certain research studies. How chronic lyme disease permanently damages B cells in the body.

And the condition not to be curable. I wanted to share the info here to see what others think. I don't think it has much truth in it myself.

But I don't have enough of a science background to really make a rebuttal statement. I just think it all sounds pretty over the top and un true. Anyways here is the info.

"Once your immune system is tolerized to something it is not able to recognize it and fight it. It can happen via a tick bite or the Lyme vaccine.

Both are driven by OspA (OspA should NEVER be in a vaccine as it is the same as what the spirochetes shed and fungal)
----

Spirochetes are their own phylum, a relapsing fever germ where they continuously shed their outer surface known as antigenic variation, as the CDC crook Alan Barbour calls it "blebbing", by evading the immune system to dodge a septic cytokine storm.

The shed outer surface is fungal, known as OspA or Pam3cys, a highly toxic permanent immune suppressing TLR2/1 fungal antigen. They immediately travel to the lymph nodes in the first 24 hours of infection permanently damaging B-cells.

The immune system is then tolerized to no longer recognize this or any other pathogens, becoming the breeding ground for opportunistic infections such as EBV, coxsackie, herpes viruses, cytomegalovirus, candida, streptococcus, mycoplasma, etc.

A B-cell AIDS outcome or Post Sepsis Syndrome. A permanently destroyed immune system and opportunistic infections as the driving force in this neurological chronic fatiguing massacre what we call, "chronic Lyme disease". OspA alone causes Post-Sepsis Syndrome via vaccine or tick bite.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26457672
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22227568
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16479520
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/.../pmc/articles/PMC3714565/
http://mobile.the-scientist.com/.../researchers-finding...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC182019/

https://rjspiritualityandthetruthab...d-by-outer-surface-proteins-shed-by-borrelia/


Not related but here are some more recent research studies done on Lyme disease that I have found as well.

On B cells
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/jimmunol/early/2012/04/30/jimmunol.1103735.full.pdf

On Mitochondria
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392059/
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,320
AIDS is by definition immunodeficiency caused by the HIV virus, so there can be no such thing as B-cell AIDS. AIDS typically leads to death within three years without treatment, whereas things like post-Lyme disease, CFS/ME etc. typically do not, so they are simply not the same condition. I think those would be the bullet points to remember and I agree with you that this theory has no grounds. Quite a few CFS/ME patients here report that they actually never get sick even with a cold, probably because the immune system is already in overdrive, so that also directly goes against this theory.
 

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
AIDS is by definition immunodeficiency caused by the HIV virus, so there can be no such thing as B-cell AIDS. AIDS typically leads to death within three years without treatment, whereas things like post-Lyme disease, CFS/ME etc. typically do not, so they are simply not the same condition. I think those would be the bullet points to remember and I agree with you that this theory has no grounds. Quite a few CFS/ME patients here report that they actually never get sick even with a cold, probably because the immune system is already in overdrive, so that also directly goes against this theory.

Yes but there are many sites claiming these same things like this one here.

https://www.truthcures.org/ Apparently this community of advocates had went to DC and made a case with the department of justice.

From the people I spoke with they claimed its a permanent supression of the b cells in the immune system from the ospA protien that is within the coating of the borrelia bacteria. And another resulting tolerance to infection, where the immune system becomes incapacitated of knocking the infection out. And antibiotics and other means not being able to clear infection.

I read some of the articles from which they make their claims. And although it shows immune system changes in response to infection, and how the infection avoids the immune system. Nothing stating permanent changes in immune system function, or that it is an incurable infection.

They also call it Post sepsis lyme disease. And claim it to be a condition of immune system paralysis, post sepsis syndrome, with many opportunistic infections taken over since the immune system is no longer functioning properly.

So for the Aids comparison they are saying acquired immunodeficiency of the b cells, as opposed to the T cells like AIDS.

I told the people I spoke with that if you had non working b cells there would be no way anyone would ever go on to have remission periods after being so sick, and how many others had treated their lyme disease and stayed well for a very long time. Anyways just thought it was an interesting share, and I am not really sure how claims can be so exaggerated without any evidence to prove truth.
 

JT1024

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
Massachusetts
AIDS is by definition immunodeficiency caused by the HIV virus, so there can be no such thing as B-cell AIDS. AIDS typically leads to death within three years without treatment, whereas things like post-Lyme disease, CFS/ME etc. typically do not, so they are simply not the same condition. I think those would be the bullet points to remember and I agree with you that this theory has no grounds. Quite a few CFS/ME patients here report that they actually never get sick even with a cold, probably because the immune system is already in overdrive, so that also directly goes against this theory.

I disagree with your definition of AIDS... Below from the Merck Manual:
https://www.merckmanuals.com/profes...orders/overview-of-immunodeficiency-disorders

Immunodeficiency disorders are associated with or predispose affected patients to various complications, including infections, autoimmune disorders, and lymphomas and other cancers. Primary immunodeficiencies are hereditary; secondary immunodeficiencies are acquired. Secondary immunodeficiencies are much more common.
....
If a specific secondary immunodeficiency disorder is suspected clinically, testing should focus on that disorder (eg, diabetes, HIV infection, cystic fibrosis, primary ciliary dyskinesia).
 

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
I disagree with your definition of AIDS... Below from the Merck Manual:
https://www.merckmanuals.com/profes...orders/overview-of-immunodeficiency-disorders

Immunodeficiency disorders are associated with or predispose affected patients to various complications, including infections, autoimmune disorders, and lymphomas and other cancers. Primary immunodeficiencies are hereditary; secondary immunodeficiencies are acquired. Secondary immunodeficiencies are much more common.
....
If a specific secondary immunodeficiency disorder is suspected clinically, testing should focus on that disorder (eg, diabetes, HIV infection, cystic fibrosis, primary ciliary dyskinesia).

Arent those types of immunodeficiency a much different level of severity than AIDS? On the topic of lyme disease immune supression. I can see how with activr infection and during treatment a person can have a dysregulated immune system. But I dont see the evidence based on findings to state a person has a permenantly supressed immune system after treating aside from the people I talked to and some of these sites. The way these people were talking to me made it sound like they had a death sentence, and I did too. And all we could do is at least die with some dignity and" expose misjustice from the evil lyme vaccine scientists". I can see how maybe some sketchy things happened but all that stuff they said was way over the top and honestly made me feel a bit heated. They were spreading info that was causing a lot of fear mongering and panic for others in these lyme groups who are in a vulnerable and desperate position.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,320
I disagree with your definition of AIDS... Below from the Merck Manual:
https://www.merckmanuals.com/profes...orders/overview-of-immunodeficiency-disorders

AIDS is an immunodeficiency disorder, but other immunodeficiency disorders aren't AIDS. If you look up the definition of AIDS from any medical authority, it mentions it specifically as immunodeficiency caused by HIV. Of course there are a lot of other, quite common immunodeficiencies that exist, such as IgG subclass deficiency, but those aren't AIDS.