The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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liver enzym CYP2C19*17 frustrates Progesteron, adrenals and MAO A

Discussion in 'Hormones' started by WoolPippi, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    CYP2C19*17 is a liver enzym that busies itself with things like blood thinners and hormones. I'm homozygous for it which makes me an ultrafast metabolizer. Here's SNPedia about how that's classified

    Ultrafast means my enzym metabolizes all its substrates superfast. Progesteron is such a substrate and CYP2C19*17 grabs it all from the blood and destroys it. I need to take MUCH MORE from this medicine than normal metabolizers. For example I'm taking 400 mg Progesteron orally every day and still get my period and PMS symptoms. It's ridiculous. 400 mg is what's prescribed to pregnant people, it's what gave the hormone its name.

    Another substrate is a blood thinner like Warfarin. CYP grabs it and converts it into the effective drug. I need to get WAY LESS prescribed than a normal person otherwise I'll bleed out. Normal metabolizers only convert about 10% of Warfarin into its effective state. I do 60%. This needs to be on my medical record .

    Here's a table with the known CYPs and on which substrates they work. Inhibitors and inducers are mentioned too: http://medicine.iupui.edu/clinpharm/ddis/main-table/

    It's good to know how your CYPs are. It's especially important to know whether your homozygous for CYP2C19*17 because Progesteron plays such an important role in ME:
    1. it's the building block from which all cortisol is made in the adrenals.
    2. it's the one thing that helps when your MAO A gene is bust and you're running on high dopamine and noradrenaline (=norepinephrine). The catecholamines.
    3. it's needed to counter oestrogen in females. I've had oestrogen dominance all my life. PMS from hell.
    I'm also using a progesteron cream (npc) so some progesteron gets to travel through my veins and do its thing before it gets to the liver and gets metabolized by that overenthusiastic CYP2C19*17 enzym.

    And I make sure to stay away from its inducers such as St. Johns worth and Prednison.
    Somehow one of its inhibitors, hormonal contraceptives, made me truly mad so I stay away from those too. I guess my hormones are a sensitive balance and anything can throw it off.
    Xeno-oestrogen such as soya; tofu; plastics and pesticides give me oestrogen symptoms right away too.

    The combination of this enzym with a homozygous MAO A gene is precarious. MAO A destroys excitatory neurotransmitters (the catecholamines) which keep a person in Fight or Flight. Another enzym that destroys dopamine is COMT. With either of these enzymes not doing their work well you get a high strung, alert person. Who's permanently taxing his body, especially the adrenals.
    Progesteron gives you just the opposite: a relaxed, mellow person.
    Stupid CYP.
     
    pattismith, Asklipia, leela and 8 others like this.
  2. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    Hi, Woolpippi, I'm homozygous for it too but which is the variant. I have the hardest time figuring that out. Thanks. Oh, I see where the variant is T? I'm cc
    (Man, I have a LOT of those boogers).

    Funny, though, I always feel so many meds before I'm supposed to. Tamoxifen turned me into a witch (to put it nicely), couldn't take it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2016
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  3. irlen scotland

    irlen scotland

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    could you please tell me what your estrogen symptoms are? I think a friend has these same genes
    thx
     
  4. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    PMS symptoms and big boobs on a small frame.

    Pms symptoms were severe when I did not balance with progesteron cream. Mad severe. Literally. It's called PMDD then. It lasted 25 days out of a 28 day cycle.
    This was when I was Zinc defficient (ate too much oat bran) and 30-35 years old (glands are dwindling down after 25).

    Beware when supplementing Zinc while defficient: it may cause Copper dump. Causing madness and super wiredness for a few weeks. Worth it. But very hard. Search my posts for when I went through it. I had to put a suicide watch in place.
     
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  5. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Hormones are such a individual fair. I have been battling them since puberty. But my case is quite the opposite, to be more precise, similar symptoms but opposite culprits.
    In my case, I am progesterone intolerant. A tiny progesterone or any herb promoting it makes me extremely ill. I would also get enlarged and tender breasts approaching my period, but relieved by ESTROGEN cream!
     
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  6. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    @jjxx ,I decided last week to try some soy milk for just a little estrogenic effect and felt good........until I realized I couldn't handle the oxylates, but I think I might be like you.
     
  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I tried tofu for the estrogenic effect as well and it would cause me leaky gut. I thought it was oxalates, but now I think it was due to poor protein breakdown, just like with gluten (at proline bonds).
     
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  8. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland , could I message you with an oxalate question I'm too embarrassed to ask on here?
     
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  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Sure
     
  10. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    sorry, I put it in a conversation (?) and it looked like it was just sitting out there for anyone to read and I couldn't delete it so I made it a bunch of gibberish. (red smiley face)

    Edit, just tried again.
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Don't worry, it is a private conversation that only you and me can read.
     
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  12. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Then soy milk would be a better option in this case?
     
  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I suppose soy milk should have a similar protein/oxalate profile to tofu. I don't know if it is possible to react to one and not react to the other.
     
  14. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    True. Another way to look at them is that one is solid and the other is liquid. In order for the body to digest and assimilate, solids must be broken down to small pieces then to liquid, which demands a lot of more precious physiological effort to me. I know some people have "blockage" to this simple straightforward physical process.
     
  15. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Then have you find some relief over the years?
     
  16. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland Your comment regarding progesterone intolerance being B3 deficiency has been on my mind. Instead of doing research and reading, I worked it up in my head this time that it makes a certain logic sense:
    Progesterone diverges tryptophan pathway from making serotonin to make B3. I am on my second day of experimenting 5mg NADH from Source Naturals. So far I have not felt any effect and am thinking double the dose tomorrow.
     
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  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Do you have a reference for that? I must forward it to my dr.
    This explains why there are people thinking that bioidentical progesterone contains oxalates. B3 can cause kidney stones.
     
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  18. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    Niacin? Wow! Who knew?
     
  19. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    @jjxx , no, this was just an experiment with something I had. I might look up Black Cohosh and see what all it has in it, it's supposed to be estrogenic and help women with menopause symptoms. The soy milk was fine until the next morning.
     
  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I tried it and it just made me hypothyroid. If you don't have thyroid problems it might work for you.
    I remember reading it stimulates FSH (not sure if this is true), and my FSH is already skyhigh, so no wonder I didn't get any help from it.
     
    Paralee likes this.

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