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Lithium Orotate

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by rosie26, Apr 7, 2016.

  1. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    I've had a gut feeling for quite a while that I need to be taking Lithium Orotate for the reason that my nervous system has been getting worse over the years. Just wondering how many of you are taking it and at what dose did you start out on it? Also would be good to know the name of the one you take. Also, did any of you have burning heat problems with your ME and if so, did Lithium Orotate lessen it?

    How do you feel on it and I'd appreciate to hear the pluses and minuses of taking it.
     
  2. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    As far as I can see lithium orotate is no different from ordinary lithium carbonate in terms of a source of lithium. (Orotate may be mutagenic so why use it ?) Lithium can cause a lot of toxicity in the doses used for depression - oedema, hypothyroidism etc. I don't think there is any evidence that it is of use at lower doses. The few patients I have looked after on lithium needed regular lithium levels checking.
     
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  3. South

    South Senior Member

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  4. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    I am not sure I would class Psychology Today as mainstream - it looks like a blog from a slightly quirky psychiatrist to me. There isn't a lot of science in it and there are some bits of pseudoscience - I don't buy the bit about inflammation in the brain - that sort of stuff is usually guff. Her 'basic science time' bit says nothing that makes any sense. Cations aren't 'in the matrix'.

    A trace of lithium may be useful, (although I cannot see any definitive evidence in that article) but there is no need to take extra as far as I know, especially with orotate, since the lithium will separate from the orotate as soon as it dissolves. And if you take more than what is water you can start getting thyroid problems quite quickly (that at least the article does point out).
     
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  5. u&iraok

    u&iraok Senior Member

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    I suffered from low level depression for years and years without knowing it, maybe my whole life. My ND said my lithium levels were low and after supplementing, the depression was gone. I felt so happy which I now know is normal, but for me it was joy and happiness, lalalala. I still feel happy, years later after taking it, because I had gotten so used to the depression as being normal.

    I haven't had to retake it so I'm thinking I must have been really low in it. I took it again once just to see and saw no effects one way or the other.
     
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  6. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    I take 5 mg. lithium orotate on the recommendation of my doctor - to be honest, I don't feel any different on it, but it hasn't affected me negatively. This is a very low dose, nothing like what is given for bipolar. It's Swanson's brand.

    I used to live in southern Oregon near Ashland, which has a park called Lithia Park. I didn't realize it at the time, but the water up there is known for being high in lithium, and in general, it was a very relaxed place to be. I worked for a law firm and it was one of the most genial firms I worked for. Completely different from firms in southern California which were filled with tension and urgency and rush rush rush. And it wasn't until years later that I became of the possible lithium connection.
     
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  7. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    Around 40 years ago, I took lithium for 3 months. It essentially TRANQUILIZED me big time. WOW ... was I TRANQUIL. I felt like a real ZOMBIE but non carnivorous.

    I just bought some recently because it was very cheap. maybe down the road i will experiment with it. you just never know. many times i buy stuff i think i will probably never use it then one day i come across something on the internet that i can use it for. So it will be stored in my warehouse of supplements.
     
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  8. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    I do believe that pharmaceutical doses of lithium have the ability to really do a number on one's ability to actively function and have read all the dangers of monitoring the doses.

    I'm on 10 mg of lithium Orotate daily.

    I started at 5 mg daily and didn't think I had noticed any changes... however, I am still having some issues getting my b vitamins balanced out 'quite right' - so I take a week off of all supplements one week out of every month.

    I DID notice a pattern of behavior in my off weeks during the first few months after starting it. And man o man... it IS making an impact improvement.

    I don't know if anyone else has noticed it, but the vast majority of ME/CFS /Phoenix Rising members with ME/CFS or whatever name is best to use... tend to have a VERY short FUSE on their temper?

    I think I'm all level headed, but I do get angry often... and it's not like it's not typically justified after all... we have been lied to, manipulated, blamed, and treated like we don't matter for a bit longer than seems reasonable.

    BUT THAT SAID...? Even just the use of "ME/CFS" or "CFS" or forbid, "chronic fatigue" and people tend to GO OFF on even the kindest people trying to help out.

    Welll... back to my history on lithium. During my off weeks? I'd get into a RAGE over the slightest insult. Someone annoy me and I was level 9 pissed off. ANGRY. During my weeks while taking 5 mg? I would still get angry over slight things... but it's a level 4 angry. Not so angry as to want to curse someone out, but irritated.

    As an experiment I went to 10 mg (with NO interest in trying to increase it further btw)... and Yes... someone did something irritating to me... or insulting to me... or made my life more difficult. But now? I can discuss it calmly without feeling angry about it at all. But don't harm my kids - I still have enough of my emotions that I don't feel like they are blunted - it's just that the 'fuse' to my anger means you really got to do something that is HARMFUL before I'll get upset.

    Because I'm still trying to get 'balanced' I still have off weeks, but what I'm planning is to take 5 mg Lithium Orotate daily instead of the 10 mg on my off weeks. But I do feel like small doses are improving my quality of life right now because I don't get angry over every little thing. I should have sought out if I was low on it before starting supplementation - but honestly, I get a little tired over fighting with my doctor over every little test.

    Small doses are far more safer than high doses as we already know that there are some areas that naturally have higher doses in the water supply than what I'm taking. And it makes my life easier.

    I'm not telling everyone else to go out and take it like it's a happy pill. But I started on this journey for other reasons and am happy I found something that just takes that 'fuse' and keeps me from being so irrationally irritable.
     
  9. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    I had thought they were different, lithium carbonate being the harder kind. I have a close relative who has been on lithium carbonate for decades and have witnessed the toxicity and thyroid stuff, plus recently the beginnings of kidney damage due to the higher dose. But it had sounded to me that lithium orotate were a milder version.

    If I try it, it will be at a tiny dose and it wouldn't surprise me if I felt some affect from a small dose considering how sensitive this illness makes us. I am just concerned about it drying me out more inside and aggravating some pathway particular to my ME type.

    What would you try if you wanted something calming for the nervous system that is not too hard on the body? Considering that you are experiencing highs and lows mentally.
     
  10. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    Does this mean if you don't drink enough water to cover the salt?
     
  11. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    Sounds like it was good thing for you. And perhaps that was all you needed and you are still feeling the benefit of it. Which is interesting as well. If you had of continued, you could have had unnecessary build up that you didn't need. Just speculating here. :D I love the lalalala too, I get it without tablets.:lol:

    I don't think I have depression. The self-awareness part of me observes that I have bi-polar-like symptoms. I am laughing more and so easily - it's not normal and then I go to the opposite end and get deeply upset easily. But fortunately I do the happy one 70-80% of the time. It's great to be so happy but it's not right and I can feel my immune system or I should say nervous system is too hyper and that's not good. I just want to try and taper it down and see how things go.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
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  12. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    Nice small dose @Mary. Thanks for the dosage and brand.

    I had to laugh reading your story. We sure could do with more work places like that one. :love:
     
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  13. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    I'm glad it didn't turn you carnivorous or am I thinking cannibal, got mixed up a bit there, for a moment. Do you remember how much you took in dosage all those years ago? I liked the sound of tranquil. If I could get tranquil and still keep the laughter that would be great. :lol:
     
  14. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    i think it may have been 10mg. it's the standard dose. that sounds familiar.

    i remember that i could sit motionless for hours ... lol
     
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  15. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    That's good to hear @PennyIA.
    Yes, our nervous systems are not good with all the amplified stuff. I do worry about it because we are all very sick. I said something really horrible to a fellow sufferer when I was in overload. I felt really terrible about it and I apologized for saying it. But that's overload for you. I can't take a lot of harsh, contentious, confrontational talk. My nervous system cannot take it because I am *ill* it stresses me and takes me into overload pretty quickly and I can end up being harsh myself if I am not careful. I just want nice at this stage of my illness. It's just how it is.

    That sounds like a good balance.

    Interesting , thanks.
     
  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I found Li Orotate immediately effective in balancing my moods. In particular, it stopped me bursting into tears at every sad news story. I used 5-10mg. There are also a number of posts here re it's involvement in B12 absorption. Following extensive detox and methylation efforts, I now tend to need (by self-testing) 5mg every few days. I'd been using Ortho Molecular Products brand until iherb stopped selling it. I'm now using Aus brand Biovea.
     
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  17. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    It seems the 5-10mg is around the right dose for someone with ME, so far. Does the lithium help absorption or hinder it @ahmo?
     
  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    My understanding is Li helps B12 absorption. It's something I've read here several times, but I don't know anything about a proposed mechanism.
     
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  19. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    As far as I can see lithium orotate and lithium carbonate are exactly the same in that they provide lithium ions. Both are salts of lithium and as soon as they dissolve the lithium separates from the other half so it makes no difference what the other half is. There seems to have been some claim that lithium orotate got into the brain easier but this does not seem to have any basis. I strongly suspect lithium orotate is a scam. You might just as well use carbonate. Neither is stronger nor harder than the other.

    If I want something calming for my nervous system I use something that calms me through taste - lemon and ginger or perhaps cocoa. Tastes are very powerful in their effect on the mind, just as ice is very powerful in its effect on pain. I would not mess about with trying to alter my mood by eating chemicals to travel around in the blood. Pretty much all of the ones my wife and I have tried give more trouble than benefit. In the case of specific mental illness things are different but for mood swings I would always go for treatment through the senses - whether taste, music, lighting - they all have very powerful effects and you can switch them off at once if you want a change.
     
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  20. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    For what it's worth, this sounds nothing like bipolar. Mood swings (i.e. labile mood) is not bipolar, although people commonly confuse the two. Mood lability is common in all sorts of psychiatric and neurological conditions. Ramsay recognised it as a symptom of ME.

    Re: lithium, I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that low doses of lithium work but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that doses as low as 5 mg of lithium orotate produce noticeable effects, both positive and negative, in some people. In mainstream psychiatry it's thought that you need to achieve a dose that produces blood levels of lithium within the "therapeutic range" of around 0.6-1.2 mmol/L. Some would say that minimum adequate blood level for prophylaxis is 0.4. While that's the official view, I can't dismiss all the anecdotes from people regarding OTC Li orotate, including several people I know well.

    Unfortunately, lithium is quite a toxic drug to the thyroid and the kidneys. Even trace amounts in the water supply that differ from area to area where people live correlate with TSH levels. I don't have a reference for this, it's something I read years ago.
     
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