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lithium experiences

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by leaves, Jul 6, 2011.

  1. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Ok, this is not as good a reference as my original references, but here is one showing protection of the brain from glutamate toxicity by estrogen.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/h88p5450j0384nmm/

    If you want to look for other studies (and there are other ones, better ones), the keywords to look for are "NMDA receptors" and you are looking for things that don't depolarize them. There is a magnesium ion protecting the NMDA receptors, protecting them from a calcium influx which kills brain cells. If you have a magnesium deficiency you will be prone to this. You can get a magnesium deficiency even if you supplement plenty of magnesium if you
    (1) eat a high protein diet since the breakdown product of protein is ammonia and it takes magnesium and BH4 to eliminate ammonia via the urea cycle. So the ammonia will bind up the magnesium and outstrip your supply.
    (2) If you have genetic issues creating BH4 (as I do) ammonia can build up and it will depolarize the magnesium on the NMDA receptors (actually strip it off) and leave the receptors wide open to damage.

    There may be other things that strip that magnesium away -- I did not mean to imply by making a list that I studied the whole issue -- just my problem regarding it.

    But estrogen fixes it. I take DHEA to make my own estrogen and it does the job. (I mean you don't need a prescription to ward off glutamate toxicity).

    P.S. I take 1g. of magnesium/day and I still almost died of glutamate toxicity before I went on DHEA. It is because I have 3 genes lowering BH4 (so genetically you may need more than magnesium but it is a good start).
     
    merylg likes this.
  2. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Hi Rydra,

    Thanks for this info. Couple of questions, if you don't mind that is, when you say you almost died of glutamate toxicity...eeeek! what were the symptoms?
    What you call your Genetic Disaster Area...did you have those tests through Dr Amy Yasko?
    Also...the average healthy Joe on the street...how many of these polymorphisms might he be carrying?
    Good to know that DHEA helped Oestrogen, and that helped you solve your issue. I am saving my pennies for this Genetic Testing...could save a life or two!

    meryl
     
  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Problem with hormones like dhea, pregnenolone and melatonin is that they are all prescription products in australia and alot more expensive then in america. Most doctors no very little about them as well so it can be hard to find a doctor to prescribe them.

    cheers!!!
     
  4. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I got my genetic testing through Dr. Roberts (www.heartfixer.com) who follows Dr. Yaskos' program. I found him because he posts this vastly informative document on the methyl cycle: http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

    I don't think it is common to have any of these polymorphisms for the average Joe on the street. I think it is common for people in boards like this who have a lot of health problems unyielding to medical science thus far to have many of these (but more like 6). On the other conference I found one person who shared 12 of my 18 mutations. I have never seen anyone else with as many as mine, but most people cannot afford to have this done. It is VERY DEPRESSING to get your results - even for people with "only 6" mutations because it just seems overwhelmning to have so many and especially if one of them is CBS because Dr. Yasko makes it sound like a dreaded scourge. But after the black hole of depression you fall in after getting your results clears, you will be able to use it effectively and find that knowing your genes can help you make intelligent choices in supplements. (Even if you can never get your mind around all of it, like I never could).

    One thing to keep in mind when you get your genetic results back is that the field of genetic research is in its infancy. Whatever the doctor tells you may be true in only some cases and not yours. It will NOT replace getting labs and seeing what OTHER things besides your genes are affecting you. So, for example in my case I have two dreaded CBS mutations and the doctors say bad, very bad, and they tell you we hardly have a clue how to UPregulate this gene which your mutation DOWNregulates. But I had already had a homocysteine test due to having high blood pressure and I knew my homocysteine was high. So after recovering from the lab-induced depression I realised that ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS had totally overridden that gene in me so I did not need to worry about it! :eek:) :eek:) :eek:) Perhaps it was the DHEA that overrode it. Fredd's protocol brought my homocysteine down to normal (which is 6.3 and indicates normal SAMe levels) and I am fine. Unless something else comes along and blocks my DHEA!

    I feel I need to understand what is happening to me because I have so many symptoms and always feel like the Red Queen running just to stay in place. DHEA and Fredd's protocol has been the best thing that ever happened to me, but even with that chemicals can take me out (like flea control prodcuts which are androgen (DHEA) receptor inhbitors). So I am picking my way through this to find more stability in my life.

    But actually Freddd's protocol is based on supposing you have every single gene broken. Since you do not need to know which genes are broken -- you just take all pre-broken down (active) supplements. This is an excellent strategy IMHO. I am not supposed to take methyls acording to my genetics but as long as I get my DHEA and the active methylation substances, I am fine. (So don't let your genetics scare you away from doing what makes healthful sense). In short, you don't really need your genetics mapped to get well. If you pay slavish homage to your genetics you will fail to realise healthful strategies right at your fingertips (because science is nowhere near knowing even one percent of the many things that will up and down regulate your genes, totally overriding them).

    I have looked at one of the categories here in which people have stated their vitamin regimes and I am struck by how few vitamins people here take and how they are not even a complete protcol of any kind. I do not know how anyone can think a protocol will work for them if they do not take but 1% of that protocol? If you are trying to get a biochemical cycle to work and you only take 1 supplement required for the cycle, how can anyone expect that cycle to work?? The methyl cycle requires certain vitamins, minerals, and amino acids to work, and also that cycle does not work in isolation.

    Even if you take all the methyl cycle parameters and manage to get the methyl cycle working, if you are taking no other supplements, you are likely to find that another pathway is blocked (a pathway which priorly did not work can now work partly because it received the methyl it needed and now you are running into some other deficiency (such as a copper deficiency causing hyperthyroid). This is not the methyl cycle's fault, but you took a tiny amount of supplements and now felt hyperthyroid symptoms so you conclude - unfairly - that the methyl cycle protocol does not work for you (but it does -- now you actually need to pursue a thyroid condition!).

    So what I am saying is that you don't know if a protocol is working until you take EVERYTHING ON IT AT ONCE. Then you can see if it works and if so you can try to pare down the protocol at your leisure. Fredd's protocol is quite long and does not consist of merely methylation parameters. Yet I saw few people ieven taking a full methylation set of supplementation among those who listed their protocols. So, IMHO it is a better use of your money to buy supplements and implement the protocol and get labs to see where you need to tweak than it is to get your genes mapped. You may find you do not need to get a genetic test at all.

    I forgot -- did yu ask anything else? This note is long enough.
     
  5. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Oh, someone posted somewhere (I THOUGHT it was here?) that George Eby takes 800mg magnesium in divided doses and that it worked for him against glutamate toxicity. I think it probably will work for most people but I have 3 genes that cause BH4 deficiency which could be why I need more. Or it could be that the divided dose thing is difficult for me so I sometimes miss my last dose of cal/mag. The magnesium may be enough for you.

    I thought I also posted symptoms (but I cannot get used to this new laptop -- there is some way I am fat fingering something and it shoots the cursor way off into the stratosphere and it's possible I deleted a paragraph unintentionally). The time I had the life threatening Chinese Restaurant syndrome, I was not only agitated etc but also COULD NOT RELAX my muscles, including chest and heart, I felt like I was ging to pop out of my rib cage or have a heart attack at any moment, I also could not stop shaking like from low blood sugar, but eating would not resolve it, so I had a terrible headache and muscle pain from constant shaking and tension. At even after about 15 hours I felt like I was going to explode and die. It was worse than my normal wired and tired symptoms that I used to get every PMS (because I didn't know about the methyl cycle then). I do not remember cognitive symptoms except a tension headache - I was kindof busy trying to stay alive. (I kept my boyfriend on the phone all night asking what to do, what to do, and don't hang up I might die, crap. He was the one with the working brain who figured out t was due to msg because we had gone to a restaurant "known" fo high msg in their food).

    Since then I have discovered I can detect even a tiny amount of msg in food - it makes my salivary glands in my mouth slightly numb. So then I know to stop eating that food!

    I experience the shaking of low blood sugar w/o being able to correct with food and cognitive loss of perception of time/loss of productivity every time I get low on DHEA. So I keep it in my system at all times. I should mention that the symptoms of low blood sugar and the symptoms of panic are the same, as low blood sugar is known to be a cause of panic (for it really is life threatening). So someone else may describe the same symptom as panic.
     
  6. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    heaps,

    Is there a way to solve this? How does your government know what is in any package that comes in? Could you order your supplements and have them sent to a 3rd party who could repackage and forward them to you? Would that work? There must be a creative solution?

    Rydra
     
  7. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Hi Rydra,
    Thanks for your reply. I basically agree with the approach you have explained to me, and I am some way along the path! I basically started a few months ago on the SMP, then moved on to Freddd's Methylation Protocol. I need to stock up on a few individual supplements and a few "showstoppers".

    I have discovered I get major side effects from Methyl B12 and Methylfolate...leaving me with some problems to sort. Maybe I could tolerate much reduced doses.
    I do tolerate the following: Hydroxy B12 (From Rich's SMP)
    Adenosyl B12 (Dibencozide, active B12)
    Folinic Acid (as Calcium Folinate)

    I have a normal ESR. High Red Cell Folate 2087 nmol/L (776-1784) yet ?apparent functional deficiency.
    Vit B12 470 pmol/L (145-637) but ?apparent functional deficiency.
    Slightly raised CRP
    Elevated IgA
    Slightly elevated ALP (Other Liver Function Tests are OK) No evidence of Paget's on X rays or full body bone scan.
    HLA B27 Neg but ??Psoriatic arthritis
    RF Neg & most other Autoimmune screening tests Neg
    Diagnosed Chemical Contact Allergies (by patch testing)
    Diagnosed Salicylate Sensitivity
    Food Intolerances
    Food Allergies (True type) ...white potato, eggplant, coffee
    IgE Allergies (Skin Prick testing) too many to mention
    Drug Allergies & sensitivities...Plaquenil, Vioxx, Cymbalta, Pariet, Nexium
    Widespread Arthropathy, Osteoarthritis spine, Degenerating discs, Bulging discs, Scoliosis

    I am feeling really sick and like I have some serious metabolic issues going on. This is why I plan to have the genetic testing done, but I realise the limitations there. Thanks Rydra.

    meryl PS I have recently seen a Rheumatologist, Endocrinologist, and my GP...among others ;)
     
  8. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    australia (brisbane)
    Australia have the toughest customs in the world, 99% of any parcel from a supplement company is checked, dhea and pregnenolone are classed as anabolic steriods in australia, even though they are far from this. Im sure there is solutions but if caught you would be charged with trying to import restricted drugs. I just have to pay the over inflated prices here and buy them from a compounding pharmacy. Isnt that what the american govt are trying to do with supplements over there too??

    cheers!!!
     
  9. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Are you asking for my help? I can go over this and see if I;d recommend something but not now - I am in class. However you would do BEST to do to the wrongdiagnosis thread HERE as there are a number of people who can help you there with the Fredd protocol - not just me. It is under detox methylation B12.

    Talk 2 u later

    [ok, Merylg, how did you DO THAT? You sent me a private message and when I replied (with a NONanswer mind you!) it became PUBLIC! Well! So that is what happened above and why this is so disjoint.

    gotta go

    ---

    Oh! My bad - I clicked on the pathname in your note and forgot I was there when I replied. And here I thought you were soooo clever! (oops!)
     
  10. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Meryl, no one has ever asked me for help before. I should point out that the poepl who can help with "startup" and titration issues are at the worngdiagnosis thread (I never had startup issues). could be
    1. I started up with everything at once or
    2. my cbs genes prevent ever overdriving the cycle (opposit of what the doctors say but makes more sense to me) or
    3. I had a wide protocol already in place before starting freddd's.

    Darn - I had a few min break but the instructor is back.
    First step is get your self a homocysteine test and report back. Test is ~$60 and insurance may cover it, like if you have high blood pressure.
    Concurrently you HAVE to get your CRP normal because inflammation will affect your methyl cycle. I suspect antioxidants are the biggest part of this, but I'll have to look into it. Mine is normal.

    That's all I can sneak in to say just now.
    Rydra
     
  11. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Meryl,
    If you would care to repost this here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?14501-Wrong-Diagnosis-Site-Fredd-s-Protocol/page2
    I would be happy to give a try at helping you (with the help of that group of people).
    I'd like to know everything you're taking. (You know judging from what you already wrote I am probably going to say your protocol needs serioous beefing up?!)
    I don't know anything about driugs, since I don't take them.
    Psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis (as well as allergies) responds greatly to high dose omega-3. (You know Fredd's protocol calls for omega-3 as part of the most basic nutrients? ) Well to avert allergies you need 7-9g/day. This is per The OmegaRX Zone by Dr. Barry Sears, PhD Lipid Science and author of the Zone Diet. The omega-3's have priority over arachadonic acids for the same enzymes and they use them up so that inflammatory cytokines cannot be poduced from arachadonic acid. It works. I searched out a paper for someone with psoriasis and vaguely recalled it saying that with omega-3 you can cause psoriatic lesions to actually heal over time so they don't just go into remission.

    Life Extension cites studies that osteoarthritis is improved with SAMe. (So if we get your methyl cycle working, that will be a big part of it). However if you have osteoporosis, look at this paper: http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...66a.pdf&code=d813ca4b76ccb465ec9cdaa4de02bcf5 and here's the bit inside (in which bone mass is increase with this ratio of ca:zn:cu:mn -- 1g:15mg:5mg:2.5mg):

    perhaps the question we should be asking is: do dietary
    supplements of Zn and Cu reduce bone loss in osteoporotic
    patients? The most compelling evidence to suggest that they
    do comes from the work of Saltman & Strause (1993). They
    conducted a double-blind placebo-controlled study in which
    a group of 137 post-menopausal women were divided into
    four groups. Each group received a placebo, Ca (250 mg,
    four times daily), trace minerals (mg/d Zn 15, Cu 5, Mn 2-5)
    or both Ca and trace minerals. Bone mineral density was
    measured at baseline and after 2 years of the supplementation
    regimen. The results revealed that the percentage
    changes in bone mineral density were: placebo 2-23, trace
    minerals -1-66, Ca -0-5, Ca + trace minerals +1-28. The
    change in bone mineral density in the group treated with Ca
    and trace minerals was significantly different from that for
    the placebo group (P = 0-036), clearly supporting a therapeutic
    role for Zn and Cu in the treatment of osteoporosis.

    If you have trouble absorbing copper and zinc it may be that you need more metallothionein. I thought I read DHEA raises that. It is known that DHEA also raises bone mass (it is known estrogen helps women absorb copper)). So have you tried hormone replacement? Because they say you should start at the top when trying to heal since hormones are FAR more difficult to get around than genes IMHO.

    I have to go. I only barely looked at this, but I really have little time lately.

    TAke care
    Rydra
     
  12. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Si I just (finally) started the lithium (orotate) 5 mg seemed to improve cognition, but I think 10 mg caused foggyness. So I think I will stick with 5 mg for a while.. Any more updates?
     
  13. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    My only update is that I'm still doing well on 5mg. :)

    Another thing - I noticed iherb has trial packs of the Dr's Best Brand for free at the moment. They don't send free samples out of the USA (I think. Well they don't send them to NZ anyway) ...but perhaps that will be useful to someone :)

     
  14. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    I thought I'd copy this here as I thought it was interesting:-

     
  15. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Leaves, I just made this post on the "How the Brain Cleans Itself" thread. Thought I'd post it here as well. How's the lithium supplementation going for you? -- Wayne

     
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  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I just finished a 10 tablet sample of Doctor's Best Lithium Orotate. It seemed to help sometimes with anxiety, but I found a good deal on Lithium Aspartate so I bought that instead. Has anyone else tried Lithium Asparate? There seems to be mixed opinions about Aspartate/Aspartic Acid although Orotate/Orotic Acid seems mostly positive except for a few studies which have shown it to cause liver cancer in rats. Aspartic Acid is found in protein so I don't quite understand how taking a little bit more makes a difference.

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/316987-lithium-aspartate-vs-lithium-orotate/
    -----
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-aspartic-acid.htm
    ----
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-orotic-acid.htm
     
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  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was wondering if anybody has gained weight or experienced other side effects on lithium. I've read that about the prescription version, but I'm not sure how Orotate/Aspartate are different other than the dosage.
     
  18. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    No, I did not gain any weight and I would like to. ;) I have not seen any significant side effects and I am very sensitive to medcs, unable to tolerate antidepressants...I had been taking 20mg previously, but went down with the dose to 10mg. I was kind of scared what would happen, but my fear was baseless.
     
    Lotus97 likes this.
  19. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    No problems here with 130 mg lithium orotate, (4.8 mg elemental lithium) twice a day.
     
    Lotus97 likes this.
  20. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    Hi little blue stem, do you take only LO or something else yet?
     

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