Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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List of various recent interviews with Judy Mikovits

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Annikki, Mar 21, 2018.

  1. Annikki

    Annikki

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    This is a list of interviews with Judy Mikovits I found online, where she discusses the book plague. I have watched most of them to get a preview to the book Plague before I purchase it. The videos which pertain to the science of ME/CSF I will list first. Years ago, when XMRV entered public awareness I studied the science of it. I was impressed by how much this explained about ME and cancer. Honestly, I believe Mikovits. I never felt comfortable about what happened back in 2011, but I knew to little to make sense of it, so I abandoned the viral explanation for ME/CFS.

    I studied environmental issues years ago, and became familiar with the idea that science can be bought and that little can be taken at face value because money factors into what is considered sound science.

    I read a book called, Toxic Sludge is Good For You: Lies, Damn Lies and the Public Relations Industry, by Sheldon Rampton. It's a good resource to understand the ideas I'm expressing here, such as how science gets murky once powerful interests have an interest in the outcomes.

    From one of these interviews, I discovered what led Judy Mikovits to look at vaccines was her study of the first ME outbreak back in the 1930's amongst health care workers at a Los Angeles hospital. I honestly believe her when she said she got in over her head. This happens all the time to whistle blowers in both the U.S. and U.K.


    Judy Mikovits says she suspects they've know for a long time about this connection between some vaccines and illness.

    Based on this, I wouldn't be surprised if a public relations firm came up with the idea to change the name of myalgic encephalomyelitis, to Chronic Fatigue syndrome. I also think the idea of calling it "The Yuppie Flu" sounds like typical PR firm strategy.

    During the 1980's and 1990's we learned how the tobacco industry persisted to lie to the public to spare themselves any legal repercussions. This is so common these days. If this were the case with ME, it wouldn't at all surprise me.







     
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  2. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    That would answer a lot of the questions I have. But curious she dones't give the science to Ron or somebody like that.
     
  3. Riley

    Riley Senior Member

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    What happened was the scientific method. Nobody could replicate her results after multiple rigorous independent attempts. The other scientists involved in the initial finding retracted their papers on scientific grounds.
     
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  4. 5150

    5150 Senior Member

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    If Ron asked her, I know Dr. Mikovits will do her best to help him. But requesting help is his job.
     
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  5. Annikki

    Annikki

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    If you listen to the last interview above, it explains how the Lipkin study was flawed. I tend to agree with her premise that corruption is at issue. Furthermore, Lipkin isn't what I'd an honest person. He's alleged to have participated in sexual harassment, sexual discrimination and the misappropriation of funds:

    "Lawsuit at Columbia University roils prominent chronic fatigue syndrome research lab
    "
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...ominent-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-research-lab

    Columbia professor says boss made her inspect his butt

    https://nypost.com/2017/05/20/professor-sues-after-boss-made-her-inspect-his-butt/
    https://medium.com/@james.4base/zika-and-mouse-retrovirus-64a7ed78df1d

    As far the retracted studies, Mikovits said that as the result of methylation, the XMRV virus can be difficult to detect, both for researchers and for the immune system itself. She calls XMRV
    a clever, quiet pathogen. Still, XMRV does exist. It wasn't Mikovits, it was Dr. Silverman at the Cleveland clinic who found it in prostate cancer patients. As best I know, his findings were never discredited or brought into controversy.

    Mikovits says there was no opportunity for contamination in the samples she used, since she drew blood directly from the patients she studied.

    I obtained some of the above information from these other interviews with Judy Mikovits:



    You can look up Dr. Silverman's work yourself.

    There are many other interviews with Judy Mikovits about her book Plague posted on youtube. Just search for "Judy Mikovits+interview", or "Judy Mikovits+Plague+interview."

    One intriguing idea in the book, Plague, is how the use of animal tissue in creating vaccines may explain how so many viruses seem to be jumping from animals to humans in recent times.

    Humans have been eating animals for as long as we've stood on two legs. Yet, only recent times the number of viruses which have jumped from animals to humans has increased dramatically. AIDs, swine flu, SARS, mad cow disease, MERS and Ebola are a list of animal viruses which have recently moved into human hosts for the first time.

    I think what Mikovits and Heckenlively describe in Plague, is the first thing which offers a definitive reason for the bizarre "gaslighting" of ME/CFS patients. ("Gaslighting" is a term which describes an attempt to cast a sane person as crazy, as per the movie "Gaslight" from the 1950's, with Ingrid Bergman).

    The core rule in good journalism is "follow the money." Mikovits and Heckenlively in Plague explain how the pharmaceutical industry and government officials would be economically and legally liable in a huge way for the failure to report side effects from vaccines. By liable, I mean, they will have to pay out to victims of this, and billions of dollars in damages is probably cutting it short as an estimate.

    It's worth mentioning the main manufacturer is the pharmaceutical giant, Merck. Merck incidentally was the manufacturer of Vioxx and participated in dirty tricks akin to what the tobacco industry did, to escape liability for that mess:

    Merck Created Hit List to "Destroy," "Neutralize" or "Discredit" Dissenting Doctors
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/merck-...y-neutralize-or-discredit-dissenting-doctors/
    Part 2: Did Merck Try to Censor Vioxx Critics?
    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4696711

    Follow the money. ME/CFS patients aren't crazy. We've been thrown under the bus, so to speak, for corporate profits.
     
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  6. Riley

    Riley Senior Member

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    She can talk all she wants, but the facts and the evidence do not support her. I don't know if you've noticed, but most of the content you are linking is from fringe/conspiracy theory programs.
     
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  7. JT1024

    JT1024 Senior Member

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    "Science" today is as tainted as the media is. When someone says "science says" or something is settled, I do not believe it. Believe what you want but I believe Judy was destroyed/ostracized because she was on to the truth and others had vested interest in burying the truth.
     
  8. Annikki

    Annikki

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    Conspiracy theory is suggesting aliens exist. No one is saying aliens exist, not Judy, not me, anyone. One the other hand, saying that corporations use their ample money to buy science is real life.

    The IPCC for years has said that the earth is warming at an alarming rate and this is caused by human activity. However, many scientists have said this is not true. Are these scientists dedicated to science? No, they're dedicated to getting money to skew studies and twist things to make polluters look good.

    Scientific papers get written frequently now, by people who receive pay from corporate interests.

    Case in point:
    Work of prominent climate change denier was funded by energy industry
    https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nge-denier-willie-soon-funded-energy-industry

    I was an Exxon-funded climate scientist - The Conversation
    http://theconversation.com/i-was-an-exxon-funded-climate-scientist-49855

    The tobacco industry did the same thing, having their hand picked scientists say that cigarettes weren't harmful. Here's a great article by Scientific American about the techniques used by the tobacco and fossil fuel industries:

    Tobacco and Oil Industries Used Same Researchers to Sway Public
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/...stries-used-same-researchers-to-sway-public1/

    Ian Lipkin does about as much for big pharma- or something like that. He got a grant for 25 million incidentally right after he did a study that debunked
    XMRV causing ME/CFS.

    Heckenlively said that Lipkin screened out participants from the study who had thyroid problems (associated with ME/CFS), abnormal blood readings(also associated with ME/CFS) and people who had a medical or psychiatric condition involving fatigue. In other words, Lipkin didn't let CFS patients into a study that was supposed to demonstrate a link between ME/CFS and XMRV. Plague goes into more detail about that.

    I don't think you need to read that book to recognize there is a problem with the pharmaceutical industry corrupting doctors and researchers. It's a huge problem. This article describes how big the problem is:

    Big Pharma Is America’s New Mafia
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/big-pharma-is-americas-new-mafia

    One of the major pharmaceutical corporation that makes vaccines is Merck.

    Merck was also the manufacturer of Vioxx, the drug that killed thousands of people. Merck did all manner of creepy things to insure it could keep pushing that drug, despite evidence it increased risk of heart attack.

    Articles about this:
    Merck Manipulated the Science about the Drug Vioxx, by the Union of Concerned Scientists
    https://www.ucsusa.org/manipulating-science-about-drug-vioxx#.Ws1uUdYh08o

    Drug giant Merck accused of deaths cover-up
    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13685-drug-giant-merck-accused-of-deaths-cover-up/

    That corporate money runs the world and that everything, including scientists can be bought is not conspiracy theory. Corporate scientists- and trolls- who get a payout to spread disinformation on products- are unfortunately real and all too common.

    For anyone interested, there's a book called Science for Sale, which goes into greater depth into this subject.

    As for what Judy Mikovits says about the media not covering topics, this also isn't conspiracy. Sadly, it's that only 5 major corporations own the media. Such a monopoly raises serious concerns about what things do- or don't- get reported.
    Ever see a good documentary on primetime TV that tells the truth about ME/CFS? Not me, not lately. There was some news cast about it in the 1980's. Maybe it's time to be asking why this is the case and why this is going on.

    I read this book years ago, which is now a classic, called, The Media Monopoly by Ben Bagdikian. It's a great primer on the subject of who owns the media and how this ownership influences the content of what's reported. The new version of it is out now.
    Here's a PDF with some of the content from the recent edition(for free):
    http://www.paolocirio.net/work/amaz...onopoly--By--Ben_H_Bagdikian_--0807061875.pdf

    This next article has a chart which shows the corporations who own the media and what other businesses each of these corporations are tied to:
    http://www.herinst.org/BusinessManagedDemocracy/government/media/ownership.html

    An old curse said, "May you live in interesting times." Well, now, we all live in very interesting times. Business decides science, politics and health.

    Is this conspiracy? Maybe you first need to ask why anyone, ever, would see fit to take a legitimate medical condition like ME/CFS and attempt to deny that it is even real. There has to be something motivating this and profit/greed is, sadly, the most infamous motivator of human beings.

    What Mikovits and Heckenlively describe in Plague is thus far, the only logical reason I have found for why anyone would do this.

    Imagine it's the 1930's and you've just created vaccines for polio and other infectious diseases. These were likely things that were seen as important, things that could save humanity. Maybe so much so, that any side effect such as myalgic encephalomyelitis, seemed less important.

    The problem is you have to answer for people who had side effects from vaccine. Probably, in misguided fervor for the achievement of vaccines, the effects were downplayed. As more money was made and more damage was done, the specter of people getting sick from these vaccines, became a skeleton in the closet.

    Mikovits said that if this got out, how damage has been caused from a mouse retrovirus crossing over to humans, which got into humans from vaccine cultured in mouse tissue, there'd be outrage.

    She cites the fact that the first outbreak of ME began with health care workers in an L.A hospital who'd received an early polio vaccine, which was grown in mouse brain tissue. XMRV is that virus.

    And this in my mind, explains both the needless gaslighting of ME patients, and the magically appearing and disappearing retrovirus which was found in ME/CFS patients.

    I read every article I could on the science of XMRV back in 2011, and the behavior of the virus did logically account for ME/CFS symptoms. Then the virus went away, and I was dumbfounded because the science seemed solid. My gut feeling was always something strange had happened back then. It's just a gut feeling, but I'm not so sure it was for nothing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  9. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    I believe Dr Hyde cites a court case where the health care workers received quite large settlements for harm from that vaccine.

    I don't know enough about the XMRV narrative to express an opinion.

    There is no denying the influence of profit on science and media.
     
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  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Like so many conspiracy theories, this theory is shoddy. You have not thought it though.

    Who would benefit from a coverup of a cause and potential cure of ME/CFS? The government? Definitely not, as ME/CFS represents a huge loss to the economy. The disability insurance companies? Certainly not, as these people are very concerned about paying out billions in disability payments to patients with ME/CFS. The pharmaceutical industry? No, these people stand to make a lot of money from developing and selling treatments for ME/CFS once a physical cause is established.

    The medical profession? No way: diseases like ME/CFS that are classified as MUS diseases take up a huge amount of doctors' time, and are very frustrating for doctors as there are no good treatments for them; doctors would love to see a cure or a good treatment for ME/CFS and MUS illnesses, even if just to fix the issue of such patients continually returning to the doctor's office complaining of symptoms.

    If you can identify a group who would benefit from a coverup of a cause and treatment of ME/CFS, then at least you could base your conspiracy theory on a sound motivation. Without a sound motivation, your theory just ends up on the pile of ill-thought out conspiracy theories that members of the general public are apt to idly come up with.



    You were able to work out the mechanisms by which this virus causes the symptoms of ME/CFS? Can you explain in more biochemical detail how you linked the "behavior of the virus" to ME/CFS symptoms.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  11. Annikki

    Annikki

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    Who benefits? The government gets let off the hook for encouraging a vaccine program which was touted to be safe, when in reality it wasn't. The gov't also failed to disclose any potential injury cause by vaccines, ME/CFS, included, which makes it legally liable for the damages caused.

    In the 1930's, the side effects were likely glossed over because people were likely more concerned about ending polio, and other terrible diseases. Yet, all lies, even well intentioned ones, always come home to roost. And someone has to compensate all the sick patients out there, for their loss of ability to work and so much else.

    Heckenlively argued in one of the above interviews how if the government encouraged people to receive vaccines, then the government is also liable for any injury caused by those vaccines.

    I will reiterate what I said earlier, that any pharmaceutical company which manufactures vaccines, risks losing money from any disclosure of adverse effects caused by their product. Apparently, that is why they collectively pressured Congress back in 1986 to create a special vaccine court where the payouts to victims had monetary limits placed on them.

    Heckenlively and Mikovits say 6 percent of the U.S. population is likely infected with the retrovirus, based on the number of the controls in her studies who tested positive for XMRV. Even Ian Lipkin's study corroborated that 6% of controls were infected, though he did exclude many potential ME cases from his study.

    Heckenlivey and Mikovits state that 6% of the U.S. population equals 25 million people, many of whom would have right to file injury claims based on diseases they received from vaccination. They both say this translates into trillions of dollars which would have to be paid out to compensate all the people who've become sick.

    Mikovits was at least as kind enough to acknowledge that the U.S. government likely wouldn't have the money to compensate all those people. This loosely translates into the idea that it will be a cold day in hell before the government ever acknowledges the scope of this problem.

    What I learned about XMRV in 2011, was that the virus seems to thrive in an environment of inflammation. Dr. Silverman found that XMRV promoted inflammation and inflammation was pivotal in the development of prostate cancer. In CFS, you also have high levels of inflammation.

    Mikovits says the reason XMRV promotes inflammation, is because the virus protects itself by exhausting the immune system. she says that the immune system needs to rest to be efficient. Mikovits calls XMRV infection another sort of acquired immune deficiency, like AIDS.

    XMRV ties up the immune system and "plays it for a fool," to quote Kent Heckenlively. XMRV drains and strains immune cells so they're useless in killing it. After all, survival is the ultimate goal of the virus.

    XMRV promotes inflammatory cytokines, which cause neuroinflammation in ME /CFS patients.

    Mikovits says she now can diagnose ME/CFS and cases of XMRV infection based upon the types of and levels of cytokines in a patient's blood. Some cytokines are more prevalent in ME/CFS, compared to controls; and some are less prevalent in ME/CFS patients. It's primarily good cytokines that are lower in ME/CFS patients. (View the interview on Chronic Lyme and Coinfections by Judy Mikovits to see the actual numbers on ME/CFS cytokines).

    The research on XMRV also mentioned it infected organs which produce hormones, like the prostate and thyroid gland.

    Thyroid disorders consistently comorbid with ME/CFS. The thyroid is a site where hormones are prevalent. This explains also why there's greater incidence of CFS and other XMRV related diseases in women. XMRV also was found in breast cancer patients, and in a number of other cancers specific to hormone producing organs (ovarian cancer, et. al.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2018
  12. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Psych industry benefits greatly having an untreatable condition that they say isnt biological but psychiatric in nature.
     
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  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    There were around a dozen replication studies performed in independent labs in countries all over the world, which were unable to find XMRV in ME/CFS patients.

    Most people would conclude that XMRV does not exist in ME/CFS patients.

    XMRV has never been found in any human being, full stop. Even the original studies that claimed they found XMRV in prostate cancer were retracted, because it was concluded those findings were due to contamination of the samples. There is not one known case of proven XMRV infection in any human being.

    To the best of our knowledge, XMRV was accidentally created in a lab in the 1990s by a recombination event.
    Last time I checked the psych industry did not have the executive power to globally command independent labs all over the world to publish fake studies.
    Where did you get your information from, given that XMRV has never been found to infect human beings?

    This is not the first thread on this subject. How many times do we have to go through this discussion? Why don't you just read all the old threads on this subject, so that we don't have to go through this all over again.

    The PR forum has played an important role in exposing the shoddy science of the psychologists that would have you believe ME/CFS is an "all in the mind" psychologically-caused condition. PR was able to do this in part because of its high scientific standards. Thus it is important to maintain standards on PR.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  14. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    They can put out alot of psychobabble studies and outnumber biological research which could influence other medicos in how they treat cfsme. Psychobabble studies arent done to tge same standards as many biological studies with blinded placebo etc. Enough BS can baffle some brains.
     
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  15. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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    SW Endland
    I don't understand...can you expand?
     
  16. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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    Hahahahaha!!! You ever hear of a twat called Simon Wessely?
     
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  17. Annikki

    Annikki

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    There's a history of the CDC mangling studies about retroviruses and ME/CFS, that goes back to 1991. An old article from the New York Times, mentions how the CDC wasn't helpful when Dr. Elaine Defreitas found evidence of a retrovirus in ME/CFS, all the way back in 1991.

    Link to Defreitas' findings:
    Retroviral sequences related to human T-lymphotropic virus type II in patients with chronic fatigue immune dysfunction syndrome.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC51352/

    Defrietas' story is very similar to Mikovits'.


    This New York Times article, called "A Case of Chronic Denial" describes the CDC's bungled attempt to discredit Defrietas' findings.
    Link here: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/opinion/21johnson.html

    I think what the CDC did in response to DeFreitas' work, echoes what happened with XMRV and Judy Mikovits.

    It isn't hard to mangle a study. Unless there is are a vast many repeats of the research, which has culminated over many years, you cannot ever consider the science on an issue settled. Mistakes can be made, but also in this day and age, conflict of interest also has to be accounted for. One could just as easily argue the studies which allegedly disproved Mikovits' findings could be equally suspect.

    Lets compare what happened with XMRV with other areas in science. The double slit experiment in physics has been repeated year after year, since the first time it was done in the 1920's. It's findings are regarded as fact because this has been proven a significant number of times over a 90 plus year span. And even still, a Nobel Prize awaits anyone who can run experiment that disproves the results.

    The government didn't step in to shut down any further inquiry to the double slit experiment in the 1920's. It would be sad if they did, because this experiment gives a very interesting window into the nature of reality, (the double slit experiment shows the presence or absence of a conscious observer changes the behavior of subatomic particles).

    Yet, with XMRV, the research was shut down. Why? Is there anything to see here or should we just move along? I mean, not like anything corrupt could happen with respect to ME/CFS. :whistle:.

    Unless a large number of researchers from a mixed pool of people, (to rule out conflict of interest), participate in research studies and all get consistently the same results, IMHO you can't call anything fact. I don't think Lipkin's study and the other two studies count are enough to be able to say a retrovirus in CFS is a dead issue.

    Instead of encouraging people to continue do tests for XMRV, to be sure what's true, the government shut down the XMRV issue very rapidly and issued it's edict that XMRV didn't exist based on fewer studies than I can count on one hand.

    Why shut down all further research? Should a government or a consensus of scientists decide an issue? If you're going to trust the U.S. government's edicts on science as incontrovertible fact, have fun.:rolleyes:

    The reason I thought Mikovits was worth listening to, goes back to before 2011 and her false arrest. Her research wasn't welcome by people, and quite a few people attacked her. I recall one doctor of all people calling her a b*#$ch. I recall many people at the time would have loved to force Mikovits to shut up and get CBT. Needless to say there wasn't a lot of professionalism going on then.

    Seeing how she was slandered by some from the start- I tend to believe Judy Mikovits may be telling some truth. These days, my money is always on the underdog and for good reason. I was willing to listen to her side of things. I think it's always good wisdom to hear both sides before making up your mind.

    Last but not least, the charges which were pressed against her were dropped, which lends credibility to her allegations. After all, she had a gag order on her for so long, it's easy to forget that she might have had something to say about it all.

    We all just left the XMRV issue to die. Even when no one was attacking Robert Silverman, the actual discoverer of a real retrovirus, XMRV. The virus never did go away. Just the ME/CFS part of it. Funny that. This is just me, though, I keep and open mind- and from that I learn many useful things.:redface:
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
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  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Not true at all. In fact the Mikovits XMRV ME/CFS study was one of the most replicated ME/CFS studies of all time, replicated in numerous independent labs all over the world. The research was not shut down, but rapidly taken up by labs all over the globe.

    The XMRV study was replicated in Italy, Canada, Japan, the UK, China, the Netherlands, Germany and the USA — and all got negative results. See the list of XMRV replication studies here.

    Any one of those labs was quite free to pursue to further research on XMRV if they wanted to. Nobody was "shutting them down". But given the huge set of negative results from around the world, why would any lab waste their time on a dead end?


    Compare that to Dr John Chia's excellent 2007 study finding enterovirus in the intestines of 82% of ME/CFS patients. That has not yet been replicated once, yet the science is far more solid than XMRV.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  19. Annikki

    Annikki

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    Please list them all. I only recall a few which makes sense given the short period of time, a year or so which culminated before the subject of XMRV was buried.

    In the meantime, I'd like to share a great film, which explain how corporate interests influence the media.
    The film is "Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky" which references what Noam Chomsky's book, Manufacturing Consent, describes.
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I provided a link to a list in my earlier post.

    All in all, more than 30 studies found no association between XMRV and ME/CFS or prostate cancer. See refs 9 to 43 in this paper for a list of those studies.

    Presumably, you think that the US government was somehow able to command all these independent labs around the world to publish deliberately faked negative studies.



    So can you explain then why when Dr Mikovits tried to replicate her own study under blinded conditions, she also got a negative result, just like all the other labs around the world? Ref: here.



    Can you point out which Lipkin study found 6% of controls were infected? Because this paper says 17,249 blood donors tested by the American Red Cross in six different US regions were all found to be XMRV negative. Not one was positive.



    While you seem to be aware on how the media can be used to manipulate and dupe the public, you don't appear to be aware that Mikovits's book is itself the part of the media, and so is equally capable of manipulating and duping its readers.

    And your argument on this thread is in itself somewhat manipulative: you are throwing in all these "science can be bought" and "the media can manipulate" ideas into the fray, and you are casting aspersions on Prof Lipkin's character. All seemingly because you want to convince people that some shenanigans occurred in the XMRV story. Yet you have not provided a shred of evidence that there were any shenanigans.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
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