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Lipkin bad news folks

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by pollycbr125, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    It's a nightmare being a parent trying to decide if your child has a vaccine or not. I do think there should be more research into it. Another thread on here, new one I think, is about the MRC rejecting an application to look at vaccines and ME. I myself had vaccines shortly before getting sick.
     
  2. Bob

    Bob

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    Seems like Lipkin has changed tack somewhat in autism research...
    Here's a more recent paper...


    Application of Novel PCR-Based Methods for Detection, Quantitation, and Phylogenetic Characterization of Sutterella Species in Intestinal Biopsy Samples from Children with Autism and Gastrointestinal Disturbances
    Brent L. Williams, Mady Hornig, Tanmay Parekh, and W. Ian Lipkin
    doi:10.1128/mBio.00261-11
    10 January 2012
    http://yewda.com/?RNT6Rjh

    ABSTRACT
    Gastrointestinal disturbances are commonly reported in children with autism and may be associated with compositional changes in intestinal bacteria. In a previous report, we surveyed intestinal microbiota in ileal and cecal biopsy samples from children with autism and gastrointestinal dysfunction (AUT-GI) and children with only gastrointestinal dysfunction (Control-GI). Our results demonstrated the presence of members of the family Alcaligenaceae in some AUT-GI children, while no Control-GI children had Alcaligenaceae sequences. Here we demonstrate that increased levels of Alcaligenaceae in intestinal biopsy samples from AUT-GI children result from the presence of high levels of members of the genus Sutterella. We also report the first Sutterella-specific PCR assays for detecting, quantitating, and genotyping Sutterella species in biological and environmental samples. Sutterella 16S rRNA gene sequences were found in 12 of 23 AUT-GI children but in none of 9 Control-GI children. Phylogenetic analysis revealed a predominance of either Sutterella wadsworthensis or Sutterella stercoricanis in 11 of the individual Sutterella-positive AUT-GI patients; in one AUT-GI patient, Sutterella sequences were obtained that could not be given a species-level classification based on the 16S rRNA gene sequences of known Sutterella isolates. Western immunoblots revealed plasma IgG or IgM antibody reactivity to Sutterella wadsworthensis antigens in 11 AUT-GI patients, 8 of whom were also PCR positive, indicating the presence of an immune response to Sutterella in some children.



    currer
     
  3. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    My daughter had a series of pre-college boosters immediately before she became continuously ill with ME/CFS. We don't blame the vaccine directly though. If she and I had not had the same very sudden onset flu-like illness at the same time, and I didn't recover, we might have considered her "normally healthy" at the time of the vaccines. In fact, she had mild symptoms and occasional relapses we would have attributed to flu and colds if we didn't have experience with ME/CFS.

    What we believe (and 3 ME/CFS specialists agreed with us) is that she had mild ME/CFS at the time she got the vaccines. Then, the live virus chicken pox (HHV-3) reactivated her HHV-6 and EBV (HHV-4), so that she was then continuously, rather than episodically, ill.

    I suspect the same may be true of some people whose ME/CFS was triggered by a vaccine. It may also be that if our immune dysfunction is already in place, any live-virus vaccine could result in getting the illness (instead of only producing antibodies) and sending us into a serious downward spiral.

    I don't worry about killed virus vaccines, although I wouldn't do a bunch at once. I have some concern about overloading a potentially weakened immune system, or over-revving it with multiple adjuvents causing a cytokine flare.

    I'm not at all convinced that vaccines are a bad thing for healthy people. The question, of course, is how do you know that your immune system is healthy enough for the vaccine? We aren't, imo, healthy enough for live virus vaccines. Are our apparently healthy children? I'd say that's questionable if our immune abnormalities turn out to be genetic.

    It's a tough call with our kids. My decision is that my only child, who has ME/CFS, gets killed virus vaccines, but not live ones. If the situation arose where I really thought she might need a live virus vaccine, such as a major epidemic, I'd insist on testing to see if she already had antibodies before I'd consider giving her the vaccine.
     
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  4. Bob

    Bob

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    Thinking about the Lipkin study, that currer provided a link to, above. He discovered that mice with different auto-immune states, responded differently to vaccines. We aren't sure what causes autoimmunity - It could just be a natural difference in the way genes are expressed. So, in other words, maybe people respond differently to vaccines, depending on all sorts of variables, such as auto-immunity, genes, genetic expression, infection with HHV-6, etc?
     
  5. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    What interests me about the research I have been finding recently is exactly that, Bob.

    We know that the Fluge and |Mella research suggested that their ME/CFS cohort was found to have a higher than usual incidence of auto-immune disease, both in patients and in the families of patients.


    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0026358
    "The high rate of CFS in women compared to men is a suggestion of an underlying autoimmune process. On-going autoimmune phenomena in CFS have been discussed [10] perhaps triggered by infections through molecular mimicry, through structural similarity between a pathogen component and self-structures [11]. Several autoantibodies have been reported in CFS, but their pathogenic roles have not been established, for a review see [10]. In the present study, 23% of the patients had a previous known autoimmune disease, and 40% had first-degree relatives with an autoimmune disease. However, there were low frequencies of positive known common autoantibodies, none had elevated anti-nuclear antibodies, and two had elevated anti-thyroid peroxidase antibodies (data not shown). A possible or established clinical infection before CFS onset was identified in 21 out of 30 patients included (70%)."

    So people who develop ME could come from families with a predisposition to develop allergic or autoimmune diseases and hence be more susceptible than average to develop an autoimmune syndrome following an environmental challenge.

    We know that the rise in autoimmune disease must be being caused by an environmental factor because the rate of a purely genetic disorder would remain stable in the population.
     
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  6. currer

    currer Senior Member

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  7. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Autoimmune disease is increasing in the population
    http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/autoimmune/documents/adccfinal.pdf
    "Though each of the autoimmune diseases is relatively rare, as a group they are among the most prevalent in the United States, affecting between 14.7 and 23.5 million people – up to eight percent of the population. They also are a leading cause of death among young and middle-aged women. For reasons that are poorly understood, the incidence and prevalence of autoimmune diseases is rising. The chronic and often debilitating nature of many autoimmune diseases increases the burden on patients, their families, and society in terms of medical costs, reduced quality of life, and lost productivity."

    -and the fact that studies such as this one exist - looking at background rates of autoimmune disease - means that a possible connection between autoimmune disease and vaccination has been suspected for years.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X09016661
     
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  8. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Most autoimmune diseases disproportionately affect women. For some diseases, such as thyroiditis, scleroderma, lupus, and Sjögren’s syndrome, more than 85 percent of patients are female. This gender disparity is smaller, though still substantial, in other autoimmune diseases, such as multiple sclerosis, myasthenia gravis, and inflammatory bowel disease. A few diseases, such as type 1 diabetes, affect men and women almost equally, whereas others, such as ankylosing spondylitis, occur more frequently in men. The reasons for these gender-based differences are not well understood, but the production of sex hormones is probably one important factor, since the disparities generally do not appear until puberty and tend to diminish after menopause.
    http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/autoimmune/documents/adccfinal.pdf
     
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  9. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    The tendency to develop an autoimmune disease is in part hereditary. Initially, clinicians observed that a single patient may develop more than one autoimmune disease and that related members of the same family may share an autoimmune disease. These observations led to rigorously controlled epidemiologic studies comparing the occurrence of autoimmune diseases in genetically identical twins to the occurrence of these diseases in nonidentical twins. Several such studies reported a concurrence rate between identical twins of 15 percent to 50 percent, with a mean of approximately 30 percent. In contrast, nonidentical twins have about the same risk of developing an autoimmune disease as any other sibling, about two to five percent. Therefore, heredity is estimated to account for about one-third of the risk of developing an autoimmune disease.
    http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/autoimmune/documents/adccfinal.pdf
     
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  10. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Not really changed tack, he mentioned this research in one presentation last year, saying how they didn't find live vaccine measles virus in the gut of kids with autism (trying to replicate Wakefield findings, although they DID find it a couple of samples so the thing is obviously capable of virulence but that is another long story ...) and then he added that in the course of that study they found several unexpected things in autism samples that were very abnormal and deserved to be looked into closely. He mentioned finding sutterella in cases and not in controls ...
     
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  11. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Differences in the immune response of men and women may be related to sex hormones such as androgens and estrogens. Estrogens can stimulate B cell growth, antibody production, and cytokine release, and may be important stimulators of B cell immunity and increased susceptibility to autoimmune disease. In multiple sclerosis – the incidence of which is twice as high in women as in men – a protective effect of pregnancy has been observed, suggesting that reproductive hormones may help reduce symptoms of autoimmunity.
    http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/autoimmune/documents/adccfinal.pdf
     
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  12. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    http://www.discoverymedicine.com/He...accines-and-autoimmune-diseases-of-the-adult/
    Abstract: Infectious agents contribute to the environmental factors involved in the development of autoimmune diseases possibly through molecular mimicry mechanisms. Hence, it is feasible that vaccinations may also contribute to the mosaic of autoimmunity. Evidence for the association of vaccinations and the development of these diseases is presented in this review. Infrequently reported post-vaccination autoimmune diseases include systemic lupus erythematosus, rheumatoid arthritis, inflammatory myopathies, multiple sclerosis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, and vasculitis. In addition, we will discuss macrophagic myofasciitis, aluminum containing vaccines, and the recent evidence for autoimmunity following human papilloma virus vaccine.
     
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  13. currer

    currer Senior Member

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  14. Bob

    Bob

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    "Jackie Fletcher, from pressure group JABS, called for the vaccine to be abandoned until it can be established beyond doubt that it is safe.
    She said: ‘There have been some real horror stories. After the injection, suddenly they’ve got things like chronic fatigue syndrome.’"

    "A spokesman for Cervarix’s manufacturers, GlaxoSmithKline, said the company took reports of adverse reactions very seriously and added: ‘The UK medicines safety agency regularly reviews all suspected adverse events and had concluded that no new or serious risks have been identified during the use of Cervarix in the UK and that the balance of benefits and risks remains positive.’"

    "Of the four million vaccinations carried out over the programme's first two years, there were 4,445 reported side effects.
    • There were 3,591 'other recognised reactions' " ['other recognised reactions' are not specified in the article.]
     
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  15. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    Currer yr just rockin' it this week :)
     
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  16. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    @ xrayspex :)
     
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  17. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    "Could autism be another version of a PANDAS-like disease?
It’s possible, in some people. There is probably a group of people who have a genetic component to autism, and for them, there may not be much of a trigger or any trigger at all required. Another group is genetically predisposed, and if they encounter some factor or factors, individually or in combination, it could result in either the onset or the aggravation of the neurodevelopmental disorder; by factors, I include everything from heavy metals to infection. And lastly, there is a group that may be relatively or entirely normal but is exposed prenatally to some factor or factors that have an effect on their nervous system and that manifests as autism. This is the hypothesis, at least."
    From Ian Lipkin, quoted earlier in this thread.

    So as we can see that in some cases ME can immediately follow a vaccination (as an adverse reaction.)

    These ME cases must be being reported to the vaccine manufacturers as mechanisms are set up to trace adverse reactions of this kind. So the pharmaceutical companies will be aware of this link.

    If the articles on ASIA are correct, in some susceptible groups, adjuvants can also result in an immune dysfunction that can be triggered at a later stage, so some disease reactions would be delayed.
    Could this be sensitising the population to respond with an ME like illness years later, perhaps, when exposed to a later immune challenge, such as an infection?
    Could this account for the apparent rise in ME in the population since the eighties?

    And the shift from ME being predominantly a disease of adults, into a younger age group - as we can see that children are now frequent sufferers from ME could reflect the practice of early childhood vacination.

    If this is so, ME could also be an autoimmune neuropsychiatric disease.
    And Dr Lipkin is particularly interested in these diseases, we know.

    I think this disease connection has been suspected or known about for years, and has been ignored or covered up to avoid liability.
     
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  18. currer

    currer Senior Member

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  19. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    Vaccines may prevent untold numbers of ME/CFS cases. Exposure to the live disease they are meant to prevent would cause a vastly larger immune system load than the vaccine; contracting such a disease, be it mumps, polio, or whatever might be enough to trigger post-viral ME/CFS itself.
    I make it a policy to ask for any vaccine for bugs I might cross paths with unless contra-indicated by my doc.
     
  20. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Most ME/CFS specialist docs say live virus vaccines are contraindicated for PWME.

    I believe vaccines are an important and valuable resource. I get all the killed virus vaccines, such as the annual flu vaccine, because I believe it to be preferable to getting the full-blown illness. Live virus vaccines are an entirely different matter. Generally, people with immune impairment -- and that includes many PWME -- are advised not to get live virus vaccines because the odds of getting the illness from the vaccine is greater than the odds of encountering the virus "in the wild".
     

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