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Lipkin bad news folks

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by pollycbr125, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. VillageLife

    VillageLife Senior Member

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    Posting this here, so nobody misses this!

    ---------

    http://peerobservationsmagazine.com/demo/radio-show/

    Join us on October 7th for the whole true story about XMRV, Dr. Mikovits' term at WPI, accusations of theft, misappropriations, data withholding, trade secrets, contracts, grants, contamination, termination, cover-ups, and lots more.

    This will be the very first time Dr. Mikovits has spoken in public about what really happened -- and where things are now. If you have questions for Dr. Mikovits that you would like answered on the show, please send them to show host atpeerobmagazine@aol.com and listen in for your question to be asked and answered.

    In Short Order radio show http://www.blogtalkradio.com/in-short-order
    “In Short Order” The radio show that brings the experts to you because you deserve only the best!
    Tune in every Sunday 7-9 PM EST

    www.blogtalkradio.com/in-short-order

    October 2012 Schedule

    Oct 7th Judy Mikovits, Ph.D. – For The First Time, You Will Hear The Whole Story
  2. jace

    jace Off the fence

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    Shades of the Wesseley 'Death Threat' spin, Daily Mail emotional blackmail at it's worst. Genuine scientific questions are only a threat to those trying to manipulate the agenda. I'm appalled by this statement.
  3. pollycbr125

    pollycbr125 Senior Member

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    The article seemed to point to Frank I had also heard this on the grapevine long before this article ever appeared .
  4. pollycbr125

    pollycbr125 Senior Member

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    yeah I can't say im happy about this either .There are still too many issues that havent been addressed properly and since when has asking valid questions about a scientific study been wrong ? This could only happen in the world of me/cfs . Where would Aids / HIV patients been today if they hadnt asked questions ? infact any other illness on the planet .

    I also thought we were all supposed to be making more noise yet ask a valid question and its a case of stfu :aghhh: sorry but you cant have it both ways .
  5. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    The body language of all the researchers in the Lipkin press conference did not look constrained to me.

    I think they genuinely could not establish a connection between XMRV / PMLVs and disease, and hunting after smaller and smaller "positives" is not going to be fruitful.

    Anyway, we have known for a long time that XMRV as such was an artifact, the only real question that remained was whether PMLVs were associated or not.
  6. Firestormm

    Firestormm Senior Member

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    Update:

    I must remember to cancel my holiday to Hawaii. NOT.
  7. Bob

    Bob

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    And does anyone actually know if Frank Ruscetti lost his job, had his funding removed, or has stopped doing XMRV research?
  8. Firestormm

    Firestormm Senior Member

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    Of course he bloody didn't. Another load of nonsense from AofA. I understand Ruscetti has been due to retire for some time and any 'gagging' over XMRV was at the instigation of his institute. I dare say he and others were inundated with patient correspondence and when this controversial issue became ever more controversial the institute decided not to engage as they had done before and this applied to their employees too. If I recall it was all on their website.

    There has been so much 'spin' throughout this debacle and most of it (all of it) has originated with presumed patients in my opinion regurgitating and reinterpreting expressed and often-times unevidenced opinion of the key players i.e. Mikovits. AofA's sole involvement began with the very very very first appearance by Mikovits and Whittemore on Nevada Newsmakers and the leak (because that is what it was) of a hint that XMRV had also been linked to Autism. A leak that has never ever ever been backed up. Another false hope/false scenario based on pixie dust.

    Oh it's 'great' to be back. I can't believe this sort of nonsense is still revolving around this of all forums. More - "Lipkin was positive" yeah of course it was - like in your dreams. Mikovits was 'forced' to comply. Yeah. Of course she was what with the gun to her head and all. And AofA is a reliable source of insight. Get real. Oooo maybe their article was like pulled because it was so revealing of the truth that the CIA swooped in and censored it.
    snowathlete likes this.
  9. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Not sure what you mean, Bob, because of course XMRV wont be researched in connection with human disease now.

    This is the same Lipkin, isn't it?
    Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse strain dependent.

    Hornig M, Chian D, Lipkin WI.
    How population-based variability affects the safety of the ethylmercury-containing vaccine preservative, thimerosal, is unknown. Reported increases in the prevalence of autism, a highly heritable neuropsychiatric condition, are intensifying public focus on environmental exposures such as thimerosal. Immune profiles and family history in autism are frequently consistent with autoimmunity. We hypothesized that autoimmune propensity influences outcomes in mice following thimerosal challenges that mimic routine childhood immunizations. Autoimmune disease-sensitive SJL/J mice showed growth delay; reduced locomotion; exaggerated response to novelty; and densely packed, hyperchromic hippocampal neurons with altered glutamate receptors and transporters. Strains resistant to autoimmunity, C57BL/6J and BALB/cJ, were not susceptible. These findings implicate genetic influences and provide a model for investigating thimerosal-related neurotoxicity.
    xrayspex likes this.
  10. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Impaired carbohydrate digestion and transport and mucosal dysbiosis in the intestines of children with autism and gastrointestinal disturbances.

    Williams BL, Hornig M, Buie T, Bauman ML, Cho Paik M, Wick I, Bennett A, Jabado O, Hirschberg DL, Lipkin WI.
    Source

    Center for Infection and Immunity, Columbia University, New York, New York, United States of America.
    Abstract

    Gastrointestinal disturbances are commonly reported in children with autism, complicate clinical management, and may contribute to behavioral impairment. Reports of deficiencies in disaccharidase enzymatic activity and of beneficial responses to probiotic and dietary therapies led us to survey gene expression and the mucoepithelial microbiota in intestinal biopsies from children with autism and gastrointestinal disease and children with gastrointestinal disease alone. Ileal transcripts encoding disaccharidases and hexose transporters were deficient in children with autism, indicating impairment of the primary pathway for carbohydrate digestion and transport in enterocytes. Deficient expression of these enzymes and transporters was associated with expression of the intestinal transcription factor, CDX2. Metagenomic analysis of intestinal bacteria revealed compositional dysbiosis manifest as decreases in Bacteroidetes, increases in the ratio of Firmicutes to Bacteroidetes, and increases in Betaproteobacteria. Expression levels of disaccharidases and transporters were associated with the abundance of affected bacterial phylotypes. These results indicate a relationship between human intestinal gene expression and bacterial community structure and may provide insights into the pathophysiology of gastrointestinal disturbances in children with autism.
    xrayspex likes this.
  11. Bob

    Bob

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    An intriguing find, currer. It links autism to autoimmunity and vaccines, which indirectly links autism and ME. Very interesting. I wonder if the research was followed up.


    There's a slightly different abstract here:

    Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse strain dependent.

    Hornig M, Chian D, Lipkin WI.

    Source
    Jerome L and Dawn Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Department of Epidemiology, Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University, New York, NY 10032, USA. mady.hornig@columbia.edu

    Abstract
    The developing brain is uniquely susceptible to the neurotoxic hazard posed by mercurials. Host differences in maturation, metabolism, nutrition, sex, and autoimmunity influence outcomes. How population-based variability affects the safety of the ethylmercury-containing vaccine preservative, thimerosal, is unknown. Reported increases in the prevalence of autism, a highly heritable neuropsychiatric condition, are intensifying public focus on environmental exposures such as thimerosal. Immune profiles and family history in autism are frequently consistent with autoimmunity. We hypothesized that autoimmune propensity influences outcomes in mice following thimerosal challenges that mimic routine childhood immunizations. Autoimmune disease-sensitive SJL/J mice showed growth delay; reduced locomotion; exaggerated response to novelty; and densely packed, hyperchromic hippocampal neurons with altered glutamate receptors and transporters. Strains resistant to autoimmunity, C57BL/6J and BALB/cJ, were not susceptible. These findings implicate genetic influences and provide a model for investigating thimerosal-related neurotoxicity.

    http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v9/n9/full/4001529a.htmlhttp://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v9/n9/full/4001529a.html

    .
    xrayspex likes this.
  12. Firestormm

    Firestormm Senior Member

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    I do recall of the various interviews Lipkin gave recently Currer that he said, and here I paraphrase:

    "We did with XMRV and CFS what I was able to do with Wakefield and Autism. Slam dunked it. And that's what I would like to be able to do, what I think should be done, with all such notions."

    Lipkin was involved in proving Wakefield wrong Currer but not obviously in what you posted above/or the way you have posted it.

    If you wait a while I'll dig up what he was involved with and how Wakefield was indeed QUASHED but to be honest I cannot be arsed.

    I mean he said he had been involved with proving Wakefield wrong - and whilst my comment above might be tongue in cheek it was essentially what was said. Though (as I have said elsewhere in discussions on this) quite how you could fund such studies for all 'quack' theories (my word suppose I could have used "left-field" theories) I really do not know or understand.

    Perhaps he meant - because he was actually saying "if only we'd been able to respond as fast and in this way to Wakefield's notions we could have preventing the sharp decline in innoculations we have seen and (my inference) saved some lives as well as reduce the increased prevalence of measles perhaps" - therefore he would really like to use this sort of platform of research i.e. involving Wakefield and Mikovits etc. for projects involving contentious issues or issues that are adversely affecting/challenging public sentiment/safety.

    Again though, I have to ask how the heck such a thing could be organised, but it does go a long way to reinforcing the view that what we have seen was an appropriate and highly commendable response to the 'dilemma'. Our condition has been placed under the spotlight and I personally do not want to see any more crap associated with it by those who for whatever their reasoning, want to continue posing 'What if's?' let alone seeking to deliberately undermine the effort that has gone into this.

    Any attempt - now that Mikovits' work and my condition has been on several occasions now and by reputed researchers as well as commentators - to continue and push the notion that Lipkin was wrong and Mikovits was really right - just like Wakefield's: ANY attempt to push us closer together with that man - will see our condition BURIED on the credibility front.

    Talk about negative publicity...!
  13. Firestormm

    Firestormm Senior Member

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    Humph, well slight memory leakage I guess:

    I have a feeling Wakefield was mentioned more than this by Lipkin recently, but I don't have the effort right now to dig it out.

    Anyway, my feeling remains. I don't want to see my condition linked any further to the notions (discredited) of Wakefield anymore than they have done.

    It will see our credibility buried even if said views can be parcelled off to 'militants'.
  14. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    I hear you Firestormm. Honestly it baffles me that some people dont see that they are causing damage to the ME communities chances of progress. We've got one of the world's most renowned scientists working on our illness and money being spent for the first time on on good research, and yet some people still seem very unhappy. Different people have different opinions, I get that, and actually I think its good for the community that people express their different views even if they arent popular with everyone.

    Our illness is so un-sexy already, we should be going out of our way to make people like Lipkin feel appreciated. Not least because of his reputation but because other scientists take note when they hear his name and may become interested in ME because of that association.

    What I really dont get is what people hope to achieve by the continued questioning of the research and peoples motives, and so on, when it is clearly not going to change things? No amount of questioning the study, even if it has flaws (and I dont necesarily believe it did) is going to change anything. It wont be re-run a second time just the way everyone wants it (not that it could be anyway, because as i've stated already, people have different views). People wont be looking at any statistically insignificant results, because there are better targets to spend time money and energy on. Nothing positive can come from it, no matter how much this continues. There will be no more XMRV work because its a dead issue now. Its dead because science has proven it a dead issue for ME. But even if you doubt the science, it is still dead, despite those beliefs, because most people do believe in the published science.
  15. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    The Lipkin/MMR paper you have quoted, firestormm, could not prove the contention that measles vaccine in the gut of children led to autism by persisting in the gut and causing leaky gut syndrome - which in turn led to toxins spreading in the bloodstream and causing autism. (at the end of a long chain of events)
    (Given the suddenness with which autism can develop in a previously apparently healthy child, this line of reasoning seems something of a straw man)


    It does not disprove any other connection (if you reverse the chain of reasoning) between vaccines, adjuvants, or preservatives in those vaccines causing an autoimmune reaction, - encephalitis - and eventually through disturbed immunity - gut dysbiosis.


    That Lipkin study did find two cases of persistent measles vaccine strain in the gut, one in patients and one in controls.

    But vaccines could be causing disease if you reverse the process and suggest that immune dysfunction led to the persistence of the viral vaccine strain, and it could be possible that in a susceptible percentage of the population vaccines or their adjuvants cause autoimmune disease which can manifest in several different forms as different diseases.

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2172/12/61

    "Despite being immune enhancers, adjuvants could also cause aggravation of autoimmune disorders. An isoprenoid adjuvant, pristane, has been shown to promote lupus-like syndromes and pathologic nephritis in both autoimmune-prone and non-susceptible mouse strains after a single intra-peritoneal administration [9-11"

    "Once considered "immunologists' dirty tricks", adjuvants are garnering considerable attention with regard to their modes of action, safety, and effectiveness. A major focus is to overcome the constraints of empiricism in the choice of adjuvants and develop efficacious vaccines for populations with varying degrees of immune competence."


    The incidence of autoimmune diseases is rising. We should be looking for the reason for this. Women are particularly prone to autoimmune disease, about 2/3 of sufferers are female.

    We need to understand the reason for ME having become more prevalent since the eighties. It cannot be a purely genetic reason otherwise this rate would be static, there must be an additional environmental factor.
    http://www.aarda.org/autoimmune_statistics.php


    Autism and ME could both be autoimmune diseases, with encephalitic symptoms. The second paper from Lipkin even mentions this possibility with regard to autism.
    "Immune profiles and family history in autism are frequently consistent with autoimmunity"

    The percentage of PWME who have family members with autoimmune diseases is higher than average.
    The percentage of PWME who have family members with autism is higher than average.
    natasa778 and xrayspex like this.
  16. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    I would like to use this forum to air whatever is on my mind in regard to cfs/me. I don't go to press conferences and shoot off my mouth because I don't feel I have the science background.....but this is just a forum, for patients.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
    Jarod, currer and jace like this.
  17. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Actually I agree with you xrayspex. (Sometimes I wish we had the facility to "like" a post twice!)

    I think we are free to discuss whatever we like here.

    I am not sure why anything we say here could "put off" researchers. This is a forum for patients.

    We dont control funding - if we did there would have been proper research funding put into this disease for many years past. We know we have very little power. There aren't even that many of us here.

    Do you think our forums are checked and read by the research community? (apart from one or two individuals?) I doubt it.

    I suppose the scientific world must be very small and very unused to fame (or notoriety!) as no-one who was not already involved in these debates would know anything about it or have any interest in the personalities involved.

    On this forum anyway, people are generally polite.
    beaker and xrayspex like this.
  18. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Since coming to this forum I have learnt that there seems to be a family tendency for autism and ME as linked syndromes.
    I did not know that before.
    xrayspex likes this.
  19. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Lipkin in recent Discover interview:


    currer likes this.
  20. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    The problem with some research hitherto on autism is that it has looked at triggers for disease in isolation.
    Thimerosal has been phased out of paediatric vaccines, but the autism rate appears to be unaffected by this change.

    The Lipkin research above is looking at many routes to a disease state.
    Nerves find their way to specific locations through signposts that are part of the immune system. And if you increase immunological molecules of certain types, a nerve may jog this way as opposed to the way it’s supposed to go

    But what bothers me about much of this research is it disregards the parents' reports - that their children were not born with autism and were developing normally - then reacted badly to a vaccine. And we know this can happen - which is why we have vaccine injury compensation.
    xrayspex likes this.

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