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Lightning Process to be Evaluated in Research Study on Children

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Jenny, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    London
  2. coxy

    coxy Senior Member

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    i think this is good news, about time a proper study was conducted. Lets hope they follow the children up for much longer than 6 months though, as far as i'm aware, you probably would improve, but unfortunately a lot of people seem to relapse further down the line, would we hear about them?
  3. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    Some are worried about the involvement of Esther Crawley who helped draw up the NICE guidelines as says GET works.

    Jenny
    Min and MeSci like this.
  4. flybro

    flybro Senior Member

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    pluto
    I find it incredible that this research will be allowed to be carried out on children.

    With all the information about Orthostatic Intolerance, PEM, relapses and oxidative stress, I am suprised that informed parents would allow this research to be carrid out on their children.

    I wonder if the parents will be informed about these potential risk factors to their children.

    I would have thought that the money would have been better spent finding bio-markers and sub-types.

    So children that can benefit from this can be seperated from those that could be damaged by it.
  5. coxy

    coxy Senior Member

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    oh i didn't know that. presumidly she won't be able to force the children back to school though if they are still to unwell. The families of the children who take part are going to be more than clued up about the lightning process and any other form of treatment that may be offered if they are anything like me, you'd do anything to help your children. To be honest if it were in my area and my children were willing, i'd give it a go, they've got nothing to loose. it will probably help with the children being better at pacing themselves if nothing else. i've always thought that's what the lightning process was to be honest - glorified and expensive pacing, which leads to some improvenment. We all know how hard it is to keep pacing up long term though, that's why most people go backwards again, and probably get more depressed because of that.
  6. flybro

    flybro Senior Member

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    pluto
    I agree it may well be very beneficial for a subset of children with ME CFS.

    However if the children concerned are in a different subtype of ME CFS they may be harmed.

    Also LP is lightly based neuro lingutistic prongramming. LP practitioners are not trained or qualified in any medical fields.

    You or I could become LP pratictiners after a short course, and then we would able to administer to others and charge for doing so.

    As an LP practitioner you introduce others and they to can purchase the training to become an LP practitioner.

    I'm not sure how similar this is to other multi-level-marketing structures.

    I hasten to add this is my personal opinion.

    If others no anymore about LP I would be happy to hear of their experiences and opinions.
  7. One of my friends with long-term ME (over 10 years) did the Lightning Process and he said that he found it slightly helpful but, to me, it doesn't seem to have had that much impact on his condition... he seems just the same.

    I think a lot of it depends on which practitioner you get. Some seem to be a lot more pushy than others. I think it would be good if they had some medical training about ME and how putting psychological pressure on people to get out of wheelchairs and so forth can be really harmful.

    It is definitely a highly commercial product and there is a lot of a smell of MLM about it.

    Rachel xx
  8. shrewsbury

    shrewsbury member

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    IS UK CFS Charity Action for ME involved in RCT of Lightening Process

    Ciaran Farrell posted this to co-cure today

    IS UK CFS Charity Action for ME involved in RCT of LP?


    Action for ME and the Lightning Process

    A call for clarification

    By Ciaran Farrell

    Phil Parker says : "The Phil Parker Lightning Process is a unique 3 day
    training program designed to teach you how to find solutions to life's most
    common problems".

    http://www.lightningprocess.com/what-is-it.aspx


    Phil Parker says that his Lighting Process can be applied equally for
    business success, for increasing sales, for individuals and teams, he says
    "Dont you or your team deserve to be at your best, achieve your dreams and
    avoid being left behind or burning out?"

    http://www.p-five.co.uk/Applications.html

    http://www.p-five.co.uk/Benefits.html

    Introduction

    The Press Release that follows was posted on the internet list "EuroLyme"
    but it is not clear where to find the document on Action for ME's Website
    although the address of the PDF document that gives the details of a
    Randomised Controlled Trial of the Lightning Process, (LP) is clearly that
    for action for ME as it involves "www.afme.org.uk" which is the web address
    of Action for ME's Website.

    Lightning Process

    The lightning Process is a highly controversial training in certain
    techniques and methods which when used according to the teaching provided by
    LP Trainers which will, it is claimed, cure ME and a whole host of other
    medical conditions, although LP is not a treatment or a therapy. This is
    subject to the proviso that the person undergoing training in LP really and
    truly and completely committed to being cured by LP, they will be. A
    document to this effect must be signed by all trainees prior to their being
    accepted upon LP training courses. It has been claimed by some LP Trainers
    that their LP "treatment" was so successful that individuals that who were
    so sick and disabled that they attended their LP training in wheelchairs
    were able to walk home and did not need their wheelchairs again!

    LP is not regulated by any form of medial institution or establishment as it
    is not a treatment or therapy and it is not accredited by any educational
    institute or training body either. LP Trainers are only registered with Phil
    Parker who is the creator of the Lightning Process, and not with any
    official body whatsoever. This registration centres around whether or not a
    given LP Trainer may use Phil Parker's Lightning Process logo and trademark
    and training materials in an agreed manner, on the basis of the Trainer
    paying a professional fee to Mr. Parker to do so. Therefore this matter is
    essentially one about copyright rather than about upholding professional
    medical, scientific or educational standards of practice, performance or
    behaviour by LP Trainers.

    LP is a training not a treatment in mind-body interaction based on life
    coaching, Neuro linguistic programming, NLP, Autogenic Training, AT, and
    Eriksonian Hypnosis which in combination constitutes a kind of faith healing
    (i.e. faith in the Lightning Process) which is used to convince people that
    they can cure themselves of just about any medical condition through the
    application of will power through the use of LP techniques.

    LP perceives ME and other medical conditions to be merely complex forms of
    behaviour which the individual has allowed to get out of control, because
    according to Phil Parker, this behaviour is reinforced by a supposedly
    perceived physiological feedback loop between thoughts and emotions which
    cause the "aberrant behaviour", which according to Phil Parker produces an
    altered physiological state within the person, that Phil Parker believes
    constitutes a vicious circle. This supposed vicious circle is reinforced by
    the person themselves craving the altered physiological state into which
    their "aberrant" thoughts and emotions instil in them, thus they are
    perceived to be addicted not only to their "aberrant" thoughts and emotions,
    but also to the perceived physiological state that Phil Parker attributes to
    those supposed thoughts and emotions.

    Therefore Phil Parker claims that his LP is a supposed means of breaking a
    supposed vicious circle and turning it into a supposed virtuous circle which
    will lead the person, supposedly out of their "aberrant behaviour" which is
    defined within LP as illness, and back to health and wellness.

    Therefore the issue becomes within Phil Parker's LP that ME sufferers are
    trained to believe that they "do not have ME, they merely do ME", meaning
    that ME is treated as a complex aberrant behaviour system and not a physical
    neurological disease as far as LP is concerned.

    LP concentrates on the application of various NLP linguistic techniques and
    what are called post hypnotic suggestions and triggers to reinforce Phil
    Parker's remodelling of severe illness and disability as merely aberrant
    behaviour which can be initially kept an bay, and then trained away by
    continuous repetition of LP.

    The consequence of this is that if one is to apply LP as its creator
    intends, then one must not acknowledge that one is in pain or suffering
    symptoms as this is taken to be the intrusion of the "negative" "sick" self
    which corresponds to the personification of the "aberrant" thoughts and
    emotions which produce the "aberrant" behaviours that the person is being
    trained to banish.

    The result of this is that LP trainees/ME sufferers are effectively trained
    to disown and deny their pain, suffering, symptoms and illness and to
    believe that they are no longer ill because they are in total control of
    their "negative sick selves" which are the supposed repository of all their
    pain, suffering, sickness and disability and that they can banish this "bad"
    and "negative" person from their mind whenever that nasty person rears
    his/her ugly head in order to subjugate them to symptoms.

    The Royal Society of medicine held a Medicine and Me type of conference
    event for ME patients and carers about ME on 11 July 2009. There were a
    number of advocates of the Lightning Process present who put forward the
    point of view that LP was an effective treatment for ME.

    Jane Colby the Executive Director of Tymes Trust, a children's charity for
    parents & children with ME said in response to this that she knew of a
    number of cases including one in particular of a boy who said he was very
    much better, when actually he was not.

    The consequence of what the boy said was that he lost all, or very nearly
    all, of the help, support and assistance he had from the various
    educational, social and health services he and his family were receiving for
    him.

    I think that this illustrates very well the pitfalls of the Lightning
    Process and other techniques that are similar to it. You might think that
    you are better; you might even believe that you are no longer ill, but this
    does not mean to say that your health has genuinely improved.

    I am therefore very concerned that children and young people are to be
    subjected to LP as I do not consider that it is appropriate to do so in the
    light of this and other evidence about LP, and I am appalled that there
    should even be an official clinical trail of LP, and that children and young
    people are the subject of the trail.

    For background on the Lightning Process please see the following 3 YouTube Videos :-

    Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFGcKmdOVO0

    Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDsc0-dJ640

    Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UvfWW5IA1I


    Issues

    Action for ME have published the Press Release which appears below, although
    not very efficiently, but they are certainly handling the Public Relations
    for this Trial of LP. Action for ME is in partnership with the hospital
    where the trial is being carried out as can be seen from the Website of the
    hospital concerned. Action for ME have worked closely with Dr. Crawley and
    the service provided by the hospital at which the trial of LP is to be
    undertaken, and Action for ME's Chief Executive is on the Board of that
    hospital, and their members magazine, InterAction, regularly carries
    advertisements from LP Trainers and they have published feature articles
    about LP and other personal growth/coaching packages which all claim to be
    effective treatments/cures for ME.

    Action for ME have contended wrongly and erroneously that there are five
    ME's ranging from the physical to the psychological and they are known
    within the UK ME community for their biopsychosocial approach to ME.


    Therefore when one puts all these facts and pieces of evidence together one
    is prompted by the weight of that evidence to ask if all these instances and
    occurrences are merely circumstantial, or if Action for ME is actually
    involved in this prospective Randomised Controlled Trial of the Lightning
    Process.

    I therefore call upon Action for ME to publicly clarify their position on
    this trail and state clearly what, if any, their involvement is in this
    Trial, and to make a clear commitment to their membership that Action for ME
    will not participate in, or be involved in official or unofficial RCT or
    other clinical trails without informing and consulting their members.

    I also call on Action for ME to make a public position statement on where
    they stand on the Lightning Process, and whether Action for ME considers
    that LP provides a beneficial treatment or cure for ME
    , and whether or not
    they back this trail and whether or not they could and should recommend LP
    to their members, and on what basis, and if they will review their editorial
    coverage and advertising policies in the light of this position statement.

    I consider that this public position statement together with the above
    statement clarifying Action for ME's participation, if any, in the RCT Trial
    of LP should be published on Action for ME's Website and in InterAction
    magazine as well as on Action for ME's Facebook site.

    These matters are of particular importance given that Action for ME states
    that is the leading ME charity in the UK and that there may be considerable
    implications for the British National Health Service, the hospital
    concerned, and its clinical staff where the trial is to take place, and most
    of all the ME patients who will undertake this trial, bearing in mind the
    contents of Note 5 below.


    Press Release

    Randomised controlled trial (RCT) on Lightning Process may be on the
    cards, according to this press release

    This pdf gives the info, but I have copied it below.

    http://www.afme.org.uk/res/img/resources/RCT on LP March 2.pdf

    2nd March 2010

    Media Release

    164,000 awarded for new research into the treatment of a chronic childhood
    condition A research study looking into interventions and treatment options
    for a chronic childhood condition has been awarded funding of 164,000 by
    the Linbury Trust and the Ashden Trust. The funding has been awarded to a
    research team led by Dr Esther Crawley, Consultant Paediatrician at the
    Royal National Hospital for Rheumatic Diseases NHS Foundation Trust, also
    known as the Min, and Senior Lecturer at the University of Bristol.

    Esther and her team will carry out a pilot project to investigate whether it
    is possible to look at two different approaches to the intervention and
    treatment of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ME (CFS/ME) in Children. CFS/ME in
    children is a relatively common and potentially serious condition affecting
    over one per cent of children across the UK. Over 50 per cent of affected
    children are bed bound at some stage of their illness and have an average
    time off school of one academic year. Despite this there is a limited
    evidence-base for treatment for children with CFS/ME. This research also
    incorporates the first study on health economic cost of this condition in
    children.

    Dr Esther Crawley said: "We are delighted to have been awarded this research
    grant. CFS/ME can have a profound impact on a child's life. We hope that our
    research will enable us to understand more about this condition and how we
    can help those children who suffer with it." The team will carry out a pilot
    project to investigate how to recruit to a randomised controlled trial
    looking at the Phil Parker Lightning Process and specialist medical care.

    This will be the first study of its
    kind in this area, and the team hopes to establish a basis for a larger
    scale multicentre research project. The specialist Paediatric CFS/ME service
    at the Min is the largest regional paediatric CFS/ME clinical service in the
    UK, and also provides services nationally. The team currently provides
    assessment and treatment for over 200 children from across the UK and
    Western Europe each year. Approximately ten per cent of the children
    referred into the service are housebound and are assessed at home.

    The Phil Parker Lightning Process is an intervention that is used for a
    variety of conditions including CFS/ME and has been developed from
    osteopathy, coaching and neuro-linguistic programming. It is a three-day
    training programme run by registered practitioners and designed to teach
    individuals a new set of techniques for improving life and health.

    Phil Parker, designer of the Lightning Process said: "We are thrilled to
    have the opportunity to collaborate on this exciting and groundbreaking
    research with Dr Crawley and her team. It is vitally important that all
    interventions that could assist children with CFS/ME to return to school and
    improve their health are explored. We hope that this study is successful and
    leads to further research collaborations between the Lightning Process and
    specialist teams like Esther's." The study will involve in depth interviews
    with the patients and their parents, and the primary outcome measure will be
    school attendance after six-months. It is hoped that over 90 children aged between eight and
    18 and their families will be involved in the study. They will be recruited
    after assessment by the specialist team at the Min.

    The study will begin in September 2010.

    Press contact: Emma Mooney, Marketing & Communications Manager RNHRD
    01225 465941 ext 211 emma.mooney@...

    Notes for Editors:

    The RNHRD NHS FT is a national specialist rehabilitation and rheumatology
    hospital based in bath. Offering services to adults, children and young
    people the Trust has expertise in general and complex:

    Rheumatological and musculoskeletal conditions

    Neurological rehabilitation

    Chronic pain management

    Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ME

    www.rnhrd.nhs.uk

    Phil Parker Lightning Process http://www.lightningprocess.com

    Linbury Trust: http://www.linburytrust.org.uk/

    Ashden Trust: http://www.ashdentrust.org.uk/

    The University of Bristol is internationally distinguished and is ranked
    among the leaders in UK higher education. Research-intensive, with an
    international reputation for quality and innovation, the University has
    17,000 students from over 100 countries, together with more than 5,500
    staff. For further information, see www.bris.ac."


    Briefing notes

    Note 1 The Bath Royal National Hospital for Rheumatic Diseases Home Page can be
    found at :- http://www.rnhrd.nhs.uk

    Under the About us page shows that the hospital provides a CFS service
    with text that reads as follows :-

    Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ME

    A service for people with chronic fatigue syndrome/ME delivered through
    outpatient programmes, weekly therapy clinics, community assessment, care
    management, and transitional clinics, which are held jointly by the adult
    and paediatric teams to assist young people in moving from one service to
    another.


    Note 2 From the above 'About us' page please select the "How the hospital is
    managed tab which shows that Sir Peter Spenser, CEO of Action for ME is a
    Non Executive Director

    Peter Spencer: Appointed in December 2007. Peter has considerable
    experience as Chief Executive of large public sector organisations. He is
    currently the CEO of Action for M.E. a national medical charity based in
    Bristol.

    Note 3 The following information is to be found by clicking on the "Chronic Fategue
    Syndrome/ME" heading under "About us" :-

    The Bath & Wiltshire Local Multidisciplinary Team provides specialist help
    for adults and young people with CFS/ME. The team covers 5 primary care
    trusts which are: Bath & North East Somerset, Kennet & North Wiltshire, West
    Wiltshire, South Wiltshire and Swindon. This part-time service works on a
    'hub and spoke' model to ensure access to services across the geographical
    area. Team members based in Bath, Salisbury and Swindon include Occupational
    Therapists, 3 GPs with a special interest in CFS/ME, a psychologist, a
    physiotherapist and an Administrator.

    The Bath & Wiltshire CFS/ME Service is part of a national network set up as
    a result of the Department of Health's CFS/ME Service Investment Programme,
    which has made 8.5 million available between 2004 and 2006 to develop
    services for people with CFS/ME. We link into a regional Clinical
    Coordinating Centre based in Bristol.

    Location and Service Leads

    The hub of the team is based at the RNHRD NHS Foundation Trust in Bath and
    is led jointly by Occupational Therapist Advanced Practitioners Nikie
    Catchpool and Anne Johnson.

    Outpatient Appointments

    Therapy led clinics are held weekly at the RNHRD or, if a person is severely
    affected, assessment may take place in a community setting. Following a
    positive diagnosis of CFS/ME by their own GP or, if appropriate, consultant
    medical practitioner locally, patients can be referred to the hub of the
    team at the RNHRD using our referral form and criteria. The team will then
    decide on the appropriate course of action to be taken.

    There are also transitional clinics, which are held jointly by the adult and
    paediatric teams, to assist young people in moving from one service to
    another.

    Supporting Services

    A 'Shared Care' approach is adopted in partnership with community based
    health and social care agencies and national charities including Action for
    ME (AfME). AfME run a part-time CFS/ME Helpline
    ( 0845 123 2390 0845 123 2390) for patients in the South West.

    Interventions

    Patients are assessed individually and appropriate treatment options decided
    upon in partnership with the Team. These include: one to one input;
    attendance on an outpatient based Modular Management Programme; Expert
    Patient Programme (EPP) input; or Care Management for people severely
    affected by their CFS/ME.

    Education, Research and Development

    The aim of the Bath & Wiltshire Local Multidisciplinary Team is to provide a
    local service for local people. Education of team members and other health
    and social care professionals, locally as well as regionally and nationally,
    is of high importance, to raise awareness and an understanding of CFS/ME.
    The Service leads act as visiting specialist lecturers to the University of
    the West of England. The Team are supported by the School for Health at the
    University of Bath in rehabilitation research projects and are also active
    members of the national PRIME Project - Patients and Researchers in ME.

    Partnerships

    To achieve our aim, effective partnership working is essential. Our partners
    include:

    The Patient and Public Involvement Forum, Royal National Hospital for
    Rheumatic Diseases NHS Foundation Trust

    Bath & North East Somerset PCT, Kennet & North Wiltshire PCT, West
    Wiltshire PCT, South Wiltshire PCT and Swindon PCT

    Avon and Wiltshire MH Partnership NHS Trust

    Action for ME and Action for Young People with ME

    ME Support groups in Salisbury and Swindon.

    Enquiries Contact : Diane Farmer Administrator/Referrals Coordinator Bath &
    Wiltshire CFS/ME Service RNHRD Foundation Trust Upper Borough Walls Bath BA1
    1RL E-mail: diane.farmer@rnhrd.nhs.uk
    Telephone: 01225 465941 01225 465941, Ext. 202 Fax number: 01225 473411

    Links

    Action for ME

    Action for children and young people with ME

    Association of Young People with ME

    CFS/ME Helpline


    Note 4 The Prime project have a seat on Action for ME's National ME Observatory
    Steering Committee which is change of spending over 500, 000 of UK Lottery
    money and Prime together with Dr. Derek Pheby were instrumental in setting
    up the Observatory. The Observatory is engaged in 6 CFS research projects.

    Note 5 M.E. in recent Private Eye (#1248)

    Under "Legal News" (p. 10)

    "M.E. sufferers were stunned recently to receive threatening letters when
    they posted their views on the 'Lightning Process'
    , a programme that
    allegedly produces 'amazing results' for people not only with M.E. but
    'anxiety, panic attack, over-eating, low self-esteem and guilt' too. When
    sufferers started reporting they had paid 600 for a course that did not
    work for them, they received warning of defamation proceedings if they did
    not recant."



    YouTube - Videos from this email

    [video]https://www-gm-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy/refresh=3600&container=gm&gadget=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fig%2Fmodules%2Fgm%2Fyoutube%2Fcard-youtube.xml/http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SFGcKmdOVO0/default.jpg[/video]

    [video]https://www-gm-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy/refresh=3600&container=gm&gadget=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fig%2Fmodules%2Fgm%2Fyoutube%2Fcard-youtube.xml/http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bDsc0-dJ640/default.jpg[/video]

    https://www-gm-opensocial.googleuse...http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0UvfWW5IA1I/default.jpg
  9. flybro

    flybro Senior Member

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    pluto
    Excellent post islandfinn
  10. shrewsbury

    shrewsbury member

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    Heather Walker <Heather.Walker@afme.org.uk> [via Co-Cure Moderators <co-cure-mod@listserv.nodak.edu>]
    posted this to co-cure today

    IS UK CFS Charity Action for ME involved in RCT of LP? - response

    [Moderator's note: responses are not normally allowed on Co-Cure, but given the question raised in the original message, we think this reply must be posted. However, there will be no further discussion.]
  11. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member

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    Scotland
    I think this study is a terrible thing.

    Children are very vulnerable because they will accept what adults tell them over their own experiences. If they are told they are not ill they will believe that no matter how they feel.

    Children think everything is their fault. Think of how many children believe their parents divorce because of something they have done.

    LP is cultish and indoctrinating and the damage this will do to a child's psyche never mind their bodies appals me.

    Mithriel
    MeSci likes this.
  12. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

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    Essex, UK
    I agree wholeheartedly. The ethical problems are grave in this instance particularly. Yet the Lightening Process is a logical extension - extreme, if you like - of CBT. It's ALL ethically unsound, frankly. Yes, ethically unsound, there, I said it!
    MeSci likes this.
  13. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

    schoo lattendence as the primary end point no functional measuements of any kind three day training course its all in the mind nlp etc no diagnostic crritera parent questionaires no base line assesment of pre treatment attendence --sorry where is the control
  14. Marco

    Marco Old blackguard

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    Near Cognac, France
  15. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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    SW Endland
    164k grant for study into the Lightning Process and children with ME

    See http://www.meassociation.org.uk/ind...and-children-with-me&catid=30:news&Itemid=161

    First question is who gets what out of the 164k. Is Phil Parker doing it for nothing? Is he delighted to be collaborating, or delighted to be contracted?

    Second, what's the objective of the study? "to to investigate whether it is possible to recruit to a randomised controlled trial studying how the Lightning Process compares with specialised medical care in the treatment of childhood ME/CFS." Anybody understand that? So, the first study works out whether it's possible to recruit to a trial - whatever that means. I guess you have to make this woolly to get the dosh, otherwise somebody might expose it for what it is.

    Third, the pilot study gets 164k, and might be followed up by a larger study, which presumably gets more. I thought not much went into ME research? Or is this LP research?

    Later on the objective is stated as " to investigate whether it is possible to look at two different approaches to the intervention and treatment of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ME (CFS/ME) in Children."
    I could save them 164k - yes, it's possible to look at two different approaches: put one here, then put one over there; look at the one here, then turn your head and look at the one over there.

    OK, this is a press release, and hopefully the project will be managed by a project manager and not a journalist.

    "there is a limited evidence-base for treatment for children with CFS/ME." OK, so lets pull the Lightning Process out of thin air and see if that helps us understand it.....,,"We hope that our research will enable us to understand more about this condition and how we can help those children who suffer with it.....and there it is!!! There are obviously some great minds involved in this.

    "The study will involve in-depth interviews with the patients and their parents, and the primary outcome measure will be school attendance after six-months." I predict that the LP will come out with a very good score - tell the kids to ignore the fact that they feel crap for the first 6 months, and get their arses into school. No measure of what this does medium to longer term, or wether it benefits the kids.

    Esther Crawley, welcome to the kingdom of Endland, we look forward to providing input to this project.

    Fingers of Endland
  16. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

    is the me association actually supporting this
  17. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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    SW Endland
    Hi Gerwyn

    "The funding comes from the Linbury Trust and the Ashden Trust."
    Haven't checked who these are.
  18. shrewsbury

    shrewsbury member

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    Hi fingers and gerwyn

    we started discussing this on this thread in mind/body

    (ah - the problems that come with success - it's hard to know if something's already been posted and also where to post sometimes)
  19. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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    SW Endland
    Thanks and apologies IF. I'll catch up.
    F
  20. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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    7
    SW Endland
    I think this study should be seriously reviewed before it starts.

    I'll be on the blower tomorrow.

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