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Lesser Known T2 Thyroid Hormone Activates Mitochondria

Discussion in 'Hormones' started by Hip, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    Yeah, that's all correct as far as I know.

    But in particular I think it will be mostly covered (e.g. malonyl-coa) by the caffeine+choline+carnitine combo (you'll have to dig out the studies): http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2013/02/forgotten-dieting-aids-choline.html
    plus AMPK activators which is covered by a large number of substances in use by sufferers.

    There are so many other combinations with carnitine people are using (unknowingly), since it's so popular, that a few of them must already cover the whole pathway. e.g. People are unknowingly doing the caffeine+choline+carnitine combo.

    So it's my opinion that the T2 is not novel, not that it can't be useful.
     
  2. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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  3. clive powney

    clive powney Senior Member

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    coventry
    haven't been on here for ages but would like to chip in here a little. I have been taking quite high doses of T3 (75mcg in equal doses per day - in line with Paul Robinsons book "recovering with T3). I have moved from an average 4 on the bell scale to about an average of about 6. I had always had my TSH measured and was just within the upper range (3 -4) but had read on the internet that this was not good enough. I went to a private clinic and tried t4.. it made me even worse , especially after increasing the dose. I tried NDT which didn't seem to help at all. I then tried T3 on its own, gradually increasing the dose and checking my body temps and heart rate etc - I also took supplements again in line with the book. Things started to improve and I am now in a position to say that although I am not happy with how I am (would only be fully happy if playing squash , football and working) , I am not dreading the next day and can function quite well doing chores and a bit of decorating and light exercise. I am also doing this in conjunction with an enchrinologist within the NHS. Surprisingly, after he measured my TSH and it by then was slightly above the NHS limit ( after my GP had said it was not an issue), he decided to do a scan on my thyroid. The results were quite shocking as he said my thyroid was not working well art all , which did not go with the TSH result.
    Just to reiterate, I have been ill for 14 years and have been on t3 for approx. 2 years. I have never had any long term improvement on anything else. It was not a sudden improvement but took around 3 to 4 months before I could really se the benefit. I take a daily view on how I have been feeling and this shows an improvement in line with my the above. It is by no means a cure but it has made a hell of a difference.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
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  4. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    Weird coincidence. I just posted a thread in the sleep forum (Unrefreshing Sleep and Iodine) where I explained that I avoid the severe grogginess by taking T2 (or iodine) every 21 days. This thread was started on the day that I felt that grogginess and realized it was time for my T2 boost.

    Hip's post added some new information for me (thanks, I had't searched the net for new for a while). The part about fat burning seems to go with my observations. Earlier in my disorder, I had more severe symptoms if I consumed fatty acids found in meats (probably palmitic acid) if it wasn't with enough carnitine. However, carnitine just helped avoid increased symptoms, while the first few times I boosted T2, it reduced existing symptoms and seemed to completely if temporarily cure my disorder. Thus I don't think it's the fatty acid transport aspect that provides the benefits.

    I also have doubts about the part about most T2 being produced in peripheral tissues, from T3. Taking some supplemental iodine (a bit of tincture of iodine on bread) has the same effect on me that 100 mcg of T2 does. Taking T4 or T3 did not have any similar effect. Also, taking T2 for a few days, and then stopping, caused an increase in symptoms severity for about the same length of time, which I assume was my thyroid responding to the artificially boosted T2. I think that means that my thyroid gland is the main source of T2, or at least of the T2 reaching my brain...or wherever Dr. Davis' 'unidentified serum component' is being produced.

    As I said in my other thread, my symptoms abruptly increase every 21 days, so it seems to be something switching state rather than a gradual decrease/increase in something. I haven't timed it to hours, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a precise and consistent 504 hrs +/- just a few hours. My original type IV food sensitivity was 48 hrs typically +/- just a few minutes. I thought that T2's main function was RNA transcription, so I assumed that the T2 boost was producing some molecule or organelle that had a consistent lifespan of 21 days. It could be more complicated, such as altering the metabolic pathway which produces more or less of something, which in turn produces more or less of something else, and so forth. For me, a T2 boost seems to 'reset' something so that the abrupt increase in symptoms returns to just normal levels of lousiness. I'd like to point out that I don't keep track of the days since my last dose. I wait until I feel the abrupt increase in symptoms, and then check my diary and find that my last boost was 21 days previous.

    I take the San T2 Xtreme product. It works the same for me as the previous product which was just the 3-5 isomer. The San product was the only T2 I could find online at the time. Half a capsule every three weeks seems to work as well for me as a whole capsule, but I've only tried that twice now, and both times I've taken it with a bit of iodine too.

    For people concerned about side-effects, I haven't noticed any from taking it once every 3 weeks. As I said in the other thread, taking one capsule of this 'fat burner' every three weeks hasn't slimmed me down at all. :rolleyes:

    For people who don't want to 'waste money' trying T2, supplemental iodine seems just as effective for me. The first time, when I was probably iodine deficient, the potassium iodide in a daily multivitamin/mineral tablet was enough to make me feel amazingly wonderful. A bunch of seaweed would probably have done the same. If you have some source of supplemental iodine available, you could try that first. T4 should be considered an iodine supplement, but it didn't work for me, even at a dose that otherwise made me jittery.

    T2--or iodine--works for me, once every three weeks.
     
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  5. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    @Wishful At what time of day do you take the T2, on that day? (This didn't cross my mind when I posted earlier but I tried something similar with other AMPK activators)

    [AMPK influences the circadian rhythm peripheral clocks... from what was posted so far I didn't see an exclusive unique effect on it by T2, but if there were it would be extremely interesting]
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
  6. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    I looked up the San T2 Extreme. Evidently it stimulates growth hormone?

    Also it said so many "don't take if" I think it covered almost everything wrong with me...like thyroid "disease".

    If I'm careful would it be ok? Does anybody that has thyroid and high BP problems take it? Thanks.
     
  7. Tiger_Eyze

    Tiger_Eyze

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    I tried T2 5 years ago and didn't notice anything.

    A tad off topic, but the combo of T3 & Vyvanse took me from mostly bed ridden to functional. I have Hashimotos, but my T3 & T4 levels never went below the bottom of the "normal range" & I do have ME, OI, an antibody subclass deficiency, Lyme & hhv6.

    Now, despite only treating my Lyme with 3 Mos of doxy & not treating my hhv6, I am able to work a normal job and handle light exertion (i.e. carrying my groceries up the stairs, cleaning the bathroom) taking only the Vyvanse & T3.
    The IVIG takes my residual fatigue down a notch and prevents me from getting sick every time I go to a crowded public place, but the Vyvanse & T3 are the core reason for my functionality. Without the T3 & Vyvanse (even with IVIG), I am severely fatigued, orthostatic, gain weight very rapidly, and can't think unless I'm horizontal.

    NDT didnt help me much, only Pure T3 thyroid hormone (compounded into an extended release form) because it turns out I convert my T4 into reverse T3 (inhibitor of T3 receptors) rapidly & NDT is mostly T4.

    So if you don't/didn't tolerate NDT or synthroid, it may be because you make too much Reverse T3, which can be genetic, caused by high dose steroids & certain beta blockers, infections, autoimmune disease, sleep deprivation, or inflammation/stress.

    Pure T3 (compounded extended release or less ideally, cytomel) would be the way to go in that case, but adrenal function must be checked and any deficiencies must be treated before/while thyroid hormone is started or an adrenal crisis can occur.

    Aditionally, iodine deficiency will limit the uptake of thyroid hormones into cells (they don't just diffuse through into the cell nucleus as was taught for decades) as well as their production. Signs of iodine deficiency can thus mimic hypothyroidism, but a standout symptom is inability to sweat much/normally.

    Iron deficiency (low ferritin, even if your hemoglobin is normal) can also mimic many low thyroid symptoms & be a cause of restless leg syndrome and tinnitus (ringing in the ears).

    Immune deficiency & chronic infections can cause fatigue that persists despite treatment of thyroid, adrenal, iron deficiency, and iodine deficiency. So if you got sick often as a kid, have an autoimmune disease, OR if the only symptoms of a cold you seem to get are fatigue and maybe some sore glands/throat while everyone else has a raging fever, cough, etc -- get checked for an immune deficiency (CVID, subclass deficiency, NK deficiency, etc.), & chronic infections (EBV, parvovirus b19, hhv6, lyme, etc.).

    Hope that helps someone or another.
     
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  8. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    For Tunguska, I had a drop of tincture of iodine at around 12:06 PM on Friday (see: diaries are useful) with 50 mcg of T2 Xtreme after that meal, so around 12:30. I felt a bit better the next morning, and even better the morning after that. I think that other times I'd felt full improvement the following morning. I could check my diary if it was important. Other times I'd taken iodine and T2, I'd spaced it out longer, even taking the T2 the next day. I think that was better, since it gave the iodine more time to be processed into T2 (enough of a fraction of it anyway). Also, I've taken it at different times of the day, with no noticeable difference.

    Since I have long convinced myself that the effect isn't placebo, I think I'll try taking T2 19 days after this dose, and see if that avoids the downturn and has any other differences.


    For Paralee: I don't think that 100 mcg of T2 is going to have serious side effects. The typical buyer of the product probably takes far more than the recommended (for weight loss) three capsules a day, so the warnings have to be tailored to those people, and to counter any possible legal action by 'not having a scary enough warning'. Since I get the same effect from 100 mcg as I do from a fraction of iodine that gets converted to T2 internally, I think it's only altering blood levels by a fairly small amount (ie. not raising your T2 level by 1000x). I have no concerns about its safety, even if I took it once a day. If I took it continuously, I'd certainly keep an eye out for negative changes, but I wouldn't expect any. An endocrinologist did diagnose me as having Hashimoto's, but I believe that's a misdiagnosis, with the elevated tsh due to chronic inflammation.

    If you have serious BP problems, ask your physician about T2 first...and expect a blank stare. :rolleyes:
    Maybe bring along a printout to inform him.
     
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  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Would you have a reference for that? I found this in Wikipedia:
    So it seems that there are active transporters that carry thyroid hormones into the cell. However, I cannot find anything about iodine deficiency affecting this transport.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
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  10. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    I have taken a drop of iodine before and felt the difference really quickly.

    I just had blood work done and my tsh was 0.07, FT3 4.52 (high), FT4 0.76 (low). I am on 2 grains of NDT...well, I was, the endo put me down to 1 grain a day (60 mcg.). What I'm wondering is if the T3 is not getting in the cells or else my body is just amazing with T3 somehow on NDT.

    I think I'll get the T2 and see if it will help. I hadn't thought about the T3 not getting in the cells before.
     
  11. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    I've had quick (within hours) responses from iodine or T2, though it's not repeatable, so I couldn't be sure that it was due to that, and not just a coincidence. I'll add that I had readings for the full set of thyroid hormone tests that the endocrinoligist said was 'abnormal' for hypothyroidism (ex: T3 was up one time, with T4 down, then reversed the next blood test), but he obviously wanted it to be simple hypothyroidism so he didn't want to explore it further. He got quite angry when I explained that chronic neuroinflammation should give elevated tsh.

    I did check my diary for past '21 days effect' and found that I often still felt lousy the following day or two. However, I didn't write down 'very groggy' or any such thing, and often went for hikes or other activities, so the T2 boost seems to mainly treat a single symptom (extreme grogginess) that occurs after 21 days. I do wonder if this is the symptom described as 'unrefreshing sleep' associated with CFS.
     
  12. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    @Hip , have you tried any yet? I'm thinking of maybe holding off a week.

    I have been floxed (twice) and there's a forum for floxies that treat the symptoms and mitochondria malfunctions with iodine. I may read some on there. Still very interested, I'm pretty sure I will do it.
     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I tried one 50 mg capsule of T2, as a single test, and noticed no improvements or worsening of symptoms as a result. I am testing something else at present, but in a few days I may be in a position to take T2 on a regular daily basis, for longer term testing.
     
  14. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    @Hip, thanks, I'm really kind of waiting for the old check book to look better. I'm going to do it.....if I don't forget.
     
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  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Over the last 4 days, I took 50 mg of T2 twice daily, with no noticeable effects on my ME/CFS symptoms.

    T2 may have worsened my insomnia, because while taking T2, I found I woke up too early having slept far too little, but nevertheless could not get back to sleep. I did not take T2 before going to bed; I took it when I first got up, with my second daily dose around 6 hours later.
     
  16. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    I haven't ordered mine yet, I was told that L-Arginine would help mitochondria and bought some of it. 500 mg., I took my first dose last night, only about a third of it. I felt funny for a while and hard getting to sleep, but woke up able to get to a better feeling and energy level this morning.

    I really have no idea what all it does, and will have to take it some more to see if the results keep up, but I hope it isn't something that will hit me negatively down the road.

    Still going to get the T2, though.

    I got some colostrum for my tummy (am I repeating myself?) and it is doing a good job so far.
     
  17. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    Correct me if I'm thinking of someone else, but didn't you write you had mostly cognitive symptoms rather than bodily ones? If so I still really think you'd need different guinea pigs for this.
     
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    That's right, I don't really get PEM from physical exercise, although I do get other bodily symptoms like the heavy "molasses" limbs. However, when my ME/CFS was worse, I could barely do 5 press-ups do to the extreme physical fatigue.

    But I agree, it would better if an ME/CFS patient who suffers from physical PEM were to test this T2 supplement, to see if it might reduce PEM.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
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  19. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    To Paralee, I've tried L-arginine too. It had no noticeable effect for me. I've tried a few other supplemental amino acids. Carnitine helps avoid increased symptoms when I consume fatty acids that aren't accompanied by adequate carnitine in the meat (beef has significant amounts, chicken has insignificant amounts). Branched-chain amino acids blocked tryptophan transport into the brain, which allowed me to avoid (or maybe just delay and spread out) symptom flare-up after a meal rich in TRP or rich in insulin-enhancing food (sugar, starch), but I haven't bothered taking any after coming to that conclusion. I think I've tried some others with no effect. I feel that some amino acids are worth trying just to see what happens, but I certainly didn't find any magical improvement.

    I'm presently trying a ketogenic diet, since some people on this board said they had some improvement from it. I think this morning I might be past the 'keto flu' stage. I have been taking carnitine with the pork, to avoid a known 'symptom worsening' effect.

    Sitting here thinking of all the wonderful things I'll do once when the keto improvement kicks in... :thumbsup:
     
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  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    You mya be interested in this list of things which may help avoid the side effects of a ketogenic diet.
     

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