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Leeds and West Yorkshire CFS/ME clinic

Messages
65
Location
UK
@themjay Sorry to hear about that. Good to hear that you got a GP you can talk too.

I saw one of the Associated Physicians there, who was very sympathetic but always had to go to a GP, when requesting an appointment. Then I got a GP, in hope that would speed things up, but only got to spend 5-8min with, before I got shown the door in a very stand off'ish way.

The GP also had no interest in reading the new and updated symptoms list I wrote. Dismissed the idea about a full blood test that a Sports Physio thought would be a good idea. Since I have been camping/hiking/cycling in very remote areas for the last year and a bit. Also it would track my iron, B12 etc.

Though when I said I was getting tired and slightly depressed, because everything was going so slow - referral, appointment and just simply finding out what is wrong with me. Grabbed the prescription paper and say I can give you some anti depressant. No, No - get me on my bicycle again and you will not need to administer anything to me again.

Was even told that I had too many referrals, cost too much, nothing more we can do for you.

Managed to get her to accept, that I gave the update symptoms list to the secretary, so she could scan in and put on file. Some days later I get a letter telling me that I have been referred to the Rehabilitation Clinic at Airedale. I wasn't told that I had. Who right away said it is not here, you got to go to the Leeds CFS/ME clinic.
 
Messages
87
I used to live for my bike, it was my whole world. It is now 11 years since I turned a pedal so I can fully understand your frustration.

I would certainly make another appointment with Dr Yasin. Where did you get your Lyme test carried out?
I had to have mine sent to USA and was very expensive. The NHS took the blood and spun it in the centrifuge for me.
The Rehabilitation Clinic is all pacing and graded exercise.

These first few years are probably crucial if you do have ME/CFS so you don't want to be running around to too many useless appointments.

I have a similar pain that goes up my back, shoulder blades and causes numbness in my little fingers. Nothing has worked for it - osteopaths, acupuncture etc.
Funnily enough a MTB Bike friend had a very bad shoulder pain and he found months of anti fungal medication helped.

You could look at Dr Myhill's website - google it, she has a large free book available. I was a patient for 8 years and although I can;t say it helped she does have some useful tests and advice, although you will have to dip into your onw pocket - which I am afraid to say is the same if you want any meaningful testing done...

I like your website by the way! Please contact me if I can be of any help at all.
 
Messages
65
Location
UK
@themjay its been two years and a bit for an it is driving me up the walls. I can't imaging 11 years.

I have tried two physios and each session knocked me out for 10 - yes I know the saying is out for 6, but I'm more beaten up than a 6.

How did the Thai massage go with you?

I will look into Dr Myhill for sure. The way I reacted to antibiotic, makes me think that is something else than damaged nerves/cfs/etc. I have been thinking about going to a nutritionist or doing a total body detox.

I got the Lyme test from a GP in Trawden, where we lived when we got back from our tour, before we moved to Skipton.

Thanks re: website.

Lunch time!
 
Messages
87
I would get on some U.S Lyme forum as I am not sure where I got mine done.
They will probably guide you better
Thai massage too much for me - he had to tone it down.
Osteopathy etc totally wipes me out but I believe this is normal for many well people also
I have got a FIR sauna which I tried but it is again too much for me.
Been to many nutritionists, in fact my partner is a trained one
I have had to remove all cycling material from the house, although there is still a Yeti and classic Kona mountain bikes rotting in the garage - very sad
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
I have had to remove all cycling material from the house, although there is still a Yeti and classic Kona mountain bikes rotting in the garage - very sad

I've been ill for 20 years, and foolishly - or ignorantly - cycled during the early years, which may well have made it worse. I sadly had to say goodbye to my car 20 years ago (no money to run one) and my bike a year or two later when I realised I could no longer ride it. I was not diagnosed for 4 years, when I finally demanded a diagnosis, which I received grudgingly.

Quite a lot of us of have been ill for 20 years or longer, and in the early years many of us had no support at all - no internet forums, no friends, doctors, family members or others who understood anything about ME. Unsurprisingly there have been suicides, and tragically there continue to be.

But at least you have Phoenix Rising, and that is no small thing (classic British understatement!). And scientific progress is being made - all too slowly - but we are getting increasing opportunities to participate in research and scientific discussion instead of being dismissed, insulted, patronised and belittled by all.

EDIT - my diagnosis was given grudgingly - I was glad to get a diagnosis, until it finally dawned on me that it would not make any difference. :(
 
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Messages
87
I totally agree with you, I had years of misdiagnosis due to medical ineptitude and ignorance. It was only when I was nearly dying that I got taken serious. Goodness knows what damage I inflicted in that time and how much money I could have saved.

Forums have proved a wonderful resource and comfort when the inevitable solitude of our illness bites.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
If you do decide to go to see KDM I would get on with it - waiting list is approx. 3 months and then it takes another couple of months to get all test results and report with treatment recommendations and prescriptions back.

The other advantage is that he will order co infection testing as per symptoms you present and look at other markers in the immune system that may point to Lyme or other infections - I think your history of camping etc would certainly suggest something like this and I would fight tooth and nail if it were me to stay away from the CFS diagnosis and get a real one.

I have totally stopped bothering with the NHS or my GP - they are completely useless as far as I can tell, and all it does is use up my energy.
 
Messages
65
Location
UK
@themjay @MeSci used to have more, now two (fixie and a touring), but scaled down because of a move and our big tour. Though I still got the old MTB frame hanging on the wall, which I got back in '95. It was also the bike that got back into shape after many years supporting the local pub, I was the 22 stone/135Kg joist that kept the bar level.

I have often thought that I would be great to know what it is no matter what it is. I know many people who have suffered from cancer etc but still have a great life. Simply they can now work around it, know their limits, get help and cured. I still don't know for sure what I suffer from. From what I know about our bodies is that when it goes ouch, you gotta stop or else it will break. So therefore if I knew what is what I could get on with my life. If that makes sense.

@themjay ooh a sauna, I haven't been in one for years. Used to sit in them for hours, seeing who could be in there the longest.

@justy We are weighing up the options, regarding what test and where to go.

Thanks all for your words, they all help.
 
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aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
I would be very surprised if you get ANY help in the UK....NHS.. private.. whatever. There is no knowledge base ...no experience ...no expertise.(yes Myhil is doing her best & Acumen Lab is great....)

And I squandered years on vitamin therapy...still sick 10 years later. not saying it doesn't have a role.. but its not gonna fix things on its own... from what I can see

And I think you will spend money out of pocket on this illness and it seems to be a case of trial & error......so be prepared to spend $$$.. but think hard about what your plans are..

And Justy is right.....save your energy ....don't butt heads with your GP... there's nothing he or the NHS can do for you.

Hbot is cheap tho.. thru the MS therapy centers and can be a helpful bandaid for some...

Good Luck.
 
Messages
87
I believe they are the people wh used to run Seacroft. Certainly, the immunologist is the one I saw at St James and he was very reluctant to take any blood for tests, so I think it is a case of "buyer beware"
 

Aurator

Senior Member
Messages
625
This is what the consultant immunologist there has to say:

"My main aims with my practice are to help individuals understand how changes in the normal balance between the immune system, the ‘stress’ system and the brain can result in chronic fatigue states and how the appropriate advice can lead to significant improvement in health."

Hard to tell exactly what this pseudoscientific talk means, but it looks like he's decided that ME/CFS equals disordered thinking. I think any random person off the street would be as likely to be able to help you as he would.
 

JohnM

Senior Member
Messages
117
Location
West Yorkshire
Sure hope things improve some for you woollypigs, as for us all :D

To add my two penneth .. another long post, for which my apologies in advance, and hope that my experience is helpful for yourself and others.

Regarding Dr. Hiroko Akagi, the full text of "Cognitive behavioral therapy for chronic fatigue syndrome in a general hospital—feasible and effective" does seem to affirm that she's 100% in the psychological camp. She was the first listed author. The study mentions Fukuda, but selects patients based only upon Oxford CFS. Out of 22 sources, they reference 8 papers by Wessely, 7 by Chalder, and 6 by Sharpe, as well as quite a few other psychosomatic BPS authors. They specifically thank Michael Sharpe at the end.

Based on my anecdotal experience with Dr Akagi at Leeds & West Yorkshire CFS/ME Service, I agree.

A report back to my GP at the time includes references such as "flushed with eyes wide open and little change in in his facial expression, although his mood appeared reactive.", "a history compatible with CFS/ME, but also appears to have developed some functional neurological problems ..", "symptoms indicative of a very high level of somatic arousal", and "somatic tension".

On meeting Dr Akagi for the first time, she introduced herself briefly, indicated that she had read my notes from a couple of previous visits to the clinic to see their OT (no longer in post at this time), but wanted to me to go over my medical history again; this, after a 1-1/2 hr journey to get to the clinic. To say I was "running on fumes" is an understatement, I was literally in a state of shock from both my efforts to get to the clinic, and her apparent lack of understanding regards the further effort required to recap my medical history to date.

All this wasted effort, to be recommended a low dose of Citalopram to be increased incrementally to reduce my "physical tension", or "Pregabalin at a lower dose to be increase incrementally ..", and to look at ".. other non pharmalogical activities such as meditation and relaxation .." Her final recommendation was to advise "a local referral for physiotherapy to address posture and gradual mobilisation .." with a view to "a slow graded introduction of activity that would help strength his lower limb muscles while correcting his posture."

If she'd really read my previous notes in detail, she would have known I have been practicing meditation for the previous 10+ years. The latter recommendation based on observation of my unsteady gait, rather than a physical examination, which would have shown that muscle strength is not the cause of my problems. Rather, muscle fatagability, intermittent loss of power, hyperreflexia and other CNS issues are the problem.

Has anyone else noted how different NHS specialists use the term ".. compatible with CFS/ME", and all that implies?

I have totally stopped bothering with the NHS or my GP - they are completely useless as far as I can tell, and all it does is use up my energy.

To be fair to my GP, he at least admits that he cannot be of much help until research paves the way to better treatment for our condition, which he now accepts is primarily a biological disease. He also accepts that I am more informed about this disease than he is, and he does not make decisions about my care and treatment without my prior knowledge and input.

The main reason I continue to see my GP on a 3-monthly or 6-monthly basis, is so that I can arrange and track blood test results, which I do find helpful. I can also keep him informed of the latest development in ME research and potential treatments. About which, thank you to everyone here on PR; sure glad I found this forum. :D

Perhaps like yourself, I have had far too many bad experiences with too many doctors/specialists in the NHS, completely ignorant of our disease.

This is what the consultant immunologist there has to say:

"My main aims with my practice are to help individuals understand how changes in the normal balance between the immune system, the ‘stress’ system and the brain can result in chronic fatigue states and how the appropriate advice can lead to significant improvement in health."

Hard to tell exactly what this pseudoscientific talk means, but it looks like he's decided that ME/CFS equals disordered thinking. I think any random person off the street would be as likely to be able to help you as he would.

Just to add he further says:

1. "During this time we developed a highly effective assessment and therapy service, .." (in reference to CFS/ME Service)

Really? Not in my anecdotal experience; an initial 30-40 minute assessment by the OT (if memory serves?).

In reality, a brief discussion of current and past symptoms and lifestyle, with reference to "character traits that can be typically found in people who develop symptoms of CFS/ME", the role of the HPA axis regards "sympathetic and parasympathic responses", and the provision of information on pacing and grading.

A follow up letter copied to myself and my referring GP at the time, stated their (non)diagnosis as ".. symptoms appear to be characteristic of chronic fatigue syndrome"

No follow up on discharge from the service; though to be fair, he was no longer with the service at this time. I think assessment and treatment options have changed little since his time at the service mindst?

2. "I was a member of the group commissioned by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) to develop clinical guidelines for the diagnosis and management of CFS/ME."

and

3. "The aims of the Yorkshire Fatigue Clinic are simple: to help you get a clear answer about your illness, to understand it and to support your recovery."

As @themjay says "buyer beware"
 
Messages
38
Location
Leeds, UK
Anyone been to http://www.yorkshirefatigueclinic.co.uk/ in York.
I wonder if there beliefs are slowly changing along with Leeds (seacroft)?

Yes, the people at YFC used to be at Seacroft. Sue Pemberton worked at Seacroft for twenty years or more and during that time she built up a good understanding of ME by actually listening to patients. Then about five years ago they got rid of her to save money - and also, I suspect, because she wasn't 'psychological' enough.She responded by setting up the Yorkshire Fatigue Clinic in York, taking two of the best therapists with her and gaining the NHS contract for most of North Yorkshire, which pleased the Mental Health Trust who runs Seacroft no end, as you can imagine.

Seacroft is not one of the worst clinics - they don't do GET as far as I know -but our group in Leeds gets much better feedback from the YFC. They even provide good support for the severely affected via home visits and Skype.

The immunologist mentioned is Dr Phil Wood. He's good if you need a diagnosis or a supportive letter but sticks to the NICE guidelines so not much use for treatment unfortunately.
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
Regarding Dr. Hiroko Akagi, the full text of "Cognitive behavioral therapy for chronic fatigue syndrome in a general hospital—feasible and effective" does seem to affirm that she's 100% in the psychological camp. She was the first listed author. The study mentions Fukuda, but selects patients based only upon Oxford CFS. Out of 22 sources, they reference 8 papers by Wessely, 7 by Chalder, and 6 by Sharpe, as well as quite a few other psychosomatic BPS authors. They specifically thank Michael Sharpe at the end.

Some excerpts (bolding and underlining :






There's a lot of the usual problems here which are seen in BPS research: blind belief that CFS is psychological/psychosomatic, reliance on entirely subjective measurements, and excessive enthusiasm about statistically insignificant or marginal results. But it does lack the deliberate spin and little nasty bits which the worse psychosomatic researchers frequently exhibit. They also don't try to hide information (such as patients frequently disagreeing with therapists regarding their improvement), though they also don't have any curiosity regarding such discrepancies.

So my overall impression is that the authors believe that CFS is 100% psychosomatic, equivalent with "neurasthenia" as quoted above. They 100% believe that CBT is helpful in improving the disease itself, and not merely as a supportive coping mechanism. There are very strong indications that they believe that beliefs and behaviors are a driving force in continued CFS symptoms.
You beat me to the first point I wanted to make. Their Annual report a few years ago described ME as a form of Neurasthenia (a Victorian psychosomatic term retired from use long ago).

Very many people (myself included) were un-diagnosed when they presented few psychological symptoms. I have also come across several people who were re-diagnosed with psychosomatic disorders when treatments failed.

The local ME support group has received at least fourteen complaints and was harassed by the legal team into removing information about them from their website. They were also harassed for recommending the Yorkshire Fatigue Clinic.

Budgets were used as an excuse but only after Wood & Pemberton refused to describe CFS as a psychiatric disorder. Wood was gotten rid of when they concluded 'a medic wasn't needed at a CFS clinic.
 
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Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
That is my surgery as well. I have severe ME and have been housebound for ten years and need a carer, so I am at the opposite of the spectrum to you. I have however spent thousands on tests and treatments as well as jumping through all the NHS hoops. My Dr is retiring so I have been seeing a temporary doctor - Dr Yasin who is there until August. She will be briefing the new partner, who is a young doctor she trained with before she leaves. She is very sympathetic and spends ALOT of time with you. She has also been reading all the latest research material I have been giving her as well. She has spoken to the Dr you mentioned at Leeds as an extra benefit. I would recommend her. Hope that helps
That sounds brilliant, would you mind PMing me the name of the practice please?