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LED red intranasal light therapy

ScottTriGuy

Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.
Messages
1,402
Location
Toronto, Canada
@Chris: There is a manufacture here selling LLLT devices. An 850nm infrared unit costs $219 — still high compared to the infrared illuminators you can buy on eBay for less than $10, which do more or less the same thing.

@Chris @Hip

You guys are awesome researchers. Would like your thoughts on these 2 quotes from the Elixa site:

*Note on power and pulsing:
The Elixa LED arrays below put out approximately 1 joule per minute per cm2,
more light per dollar than any other arrays we know of. Our LEDs have a rating of 4000 mcd at 6.4mw. This compares favorably with so-called Cold Lasers and Low-level Lasers. They do not pulse because that would add significant cost to the product, and we have seen no solid, double-blinded research that indicates a difference in healing effects between pulsed and constant light. Please let us know if you can cite research that does. And, according to our customers, they work!


and...

Elixa can provide any size/color LED array to your specifications. Contact us for more information and pricing. Arrays cost about $1/LED plus frame, switches, etc, so a large one with 700 LEDs might cost around $800

So, although I only saw one 880 array on their list, I could theoretically order a 660 and an 880 on a flexible matt like this pic so that it easily and comfortably fits on the back of my head/neck (or any where else) - but not as long as this pic because I do not want the thyroid affected.

fitbodylight.jpg
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,871
@ScottTriGuy: If you want the light to penetrate the skull in order to treat the brain, I would have thought that using infrared at 820 nm (rather than red LEDs, which are in the 620 to 680 nm range) is the best choice, since infrared is far better at getting through the skull bone and into the brain.

If you want to get a custom device built by Elixa (costing $1 per LED), you could ask them if they can build one using 820 nm LEDs (which from the graph in my earlier post, is one of the wavelengths that is best absorbed by CCO). The best absorbed wavelengths are 620, 680, 760 and 820 nm. The first two are red light, and the last two infrared light.

I would think the ideal LED device for use on the brain would combine 760 and 820 nm LEDs, as these are both infrared wavelengths that best penetrate the skull. Something like 820 nm and 680 nm might also be an idea; though the red 680 nm light will struggle to get through the skull. This red light would be fine though on other parts of the body.


Note that 820 nm LEDs I believe are harder to source than the more common 850 nm LEDs (850 nm seems to be a standard used in the electronics industry), so as a compromise, I think 850 nm should be OK; but 820 nm or close to it would be better.


The device I am currently using to perform LLLT on my brain only contains 48 LEDs (it looks similar to the unit in my post here); it is about 3 inches in diameter. I use a trouser belt to hold this unit on my head, and move the unit around my head slowly, so that it covers the areas of the brain I wish to target.
 
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Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
@Hip and Scott; a lot here, and I am down today (may explain later) but just want to make a couple of points now.
The first is that there is a fair amount of published research showing that pulsing has some serious advantages, but will just mention one now.. Javad T. Hashmi (Hamblin is the author last listed), "Effect of Pulsing in Low-Level Light Therapy," 2010. There are reasons why Lew is using pulsed in his two latest devices, the 810 and the Neuro. My experience would suggest he is right--my problems with this stuff really came from overusing the MED-X caps on Continuous. If you watched any of the webinars put on by BioFlex, you will have noted that they use a lot of pulsed in their sequential treatments, which all follow more or less the quotation from Kahn I gave in my last post.

The other is a reminder that both Lew and Margaret Naeser were clear to me that combining different pulsed units is not good--if one uses a pulsed unit like the 810 any other units used simultaneously should be Continuous. Lew can use pulsed on all the diodes in the Neuro because all are synchronized by being driven by the same power supply.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
OK, a bit more on the Continuous/Pulsed issue. You will find a pretty good discussion, backed by references, in Lew Lim’s papers "Blueprint for Neuromodulation with Intranasal Light" and the later one on the Neuro, "An Inventor’s Notes on Whole Brain Photobiomodulation with the Vielight Neuro..". First, he avoids pulsing visible red light at his favourite frequency of 10hz because it might trigger seizures in the susceptible. If I pulse my MED-X units at 10, I can testify that the 633nm diodes produce a very visible rapid flicker, which some might find disturbing.

In addition to the paper I listed already, there are Lapchak PA, "Transcranial near-infrared light therapy improves motor function following embolic strokes in rabbits: and extended therapeutic window study using continuous and pulse frequency delivery modes" and Ando T, "Comparison of Therapeutic Effects between Pulsed and Continuous Wave 810nm Wavelength Laser Irradiation for Traumatic Brain Injury in Mice."

This does not of course mean that Continuous Wave is useless–just that it seems for several reasons PW is better. M. Naeser used CW in both of her recent studies, and doubtless is using it for her current work for the Defence Dept, since she shows an 810 as part of her weaponry mixed in with all that other stuff.

I appreciate that the stuff Hip has found is at a good price, and may very well be a "best buy", but since it goes heavily on the "bang for a buck" theme, just remember that "more is not always better," or "hormesis rules." Here is an example from a paper by F. Gonzalez-Lima and Douglas Barrett, "Augmentation of cognitive brain functions with transcranial lasers," 2014, a rat study. They tested the effects of dosing on brain cytochrome oxidase activity. "Treatments were delivered for 20, 40 and 60 min via four 660nm LED arrays with a power density of 9mW/cm2..... A 10.9 J/cm2 dose increased ...activity by 13.6%. A 21.61 J/cm2 dose produced a 10.3% increase. A non-significant cytochrome increase of 3% was found after the highest 32.9 J/cm2 dose." If some is good, more is not necessarily better. And a slower delivery may be better than a fast and heavy one.

There might be some advantages in having separate pads for the red lights and the NIR lights–you could then use them sequentially, as Kahn does.

Like exercise, in fact. I may have screwed myself yesterday by starting the day with a walk that I prolonged a bit–it was bright and sunny. I climbed up a shallow stair and noted that my HR went up to 117-warning. Got home, and in a while it was obvious I was in mild trouble. So I decided to try out my brilliant new idea of taking some 633 light to prepare the way for the 810 treatment, 10mins of 633 and then the whole 25 mins of the 810 routine. I think it "worked" in the sense that I anticipated, but it seems also that in the shape I was then in it may have been a bit too much. Not a good 24 hours. Will try again in a day or two with maybe 5 and 20 and see how that goes. Repeat to self: "if some is good, more is not necessarily better....."
 

ScottTriGuy

Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.
Messages
1,402
Location
Toronto, Canada
Thanks much @Chris @Hip

Sorry you crashed Chris - curious you suspect the llt intensified your symptoms.

I went back to Doidge's Notes for p. 140:

"yeasts grow in response to 404, 570, 620, 680, 760nm"

Does that mean that treatment at 620, 680 and 760 would both promote ATP and yeast?

I've got SIBO (or had, not sure if its gone), so don't want to promote yeast.

Thus, would it be wiser to use 633 and 820?
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
@Scott; it was not a real crash, just a couple of down days; I will continue my experiment with "layering" the 633 before using the 810, while still hoping that Lew will release the new "super" 810 by itself one of these days, though it would mean building a new power/control unit.

I found the Karu paper Doidge references-

http://www.researchgate.net/profile...er_therapy/links/54d9eec10cf2970e4e7d27bf.pdf

I don't know the answer to your question, but I know there is some stuff on it, and will get back to the issue in a while.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Just a brief note while people are considering their options, refining their protocols, or whatever--I am trying a primitive, simple form of "layering" with my Vielight 633 and 810, and it seems to be of some help; trying 5mins of the 633 (red light) in each nostril before using the 810 for 10 mins in each--that puts my total up to 30, and Lew Lim sets 25 as his installed timing, but the extra 5 seems fine for me. Using both nostrils keeps them both clearer for breathing (they tend to get stuffy overnight if I only use one for the Vielight), and I seem to be sleeping a bit better. So I think there is something to the Kahn notion.

I also have both some hearing loss (not unusual at 82!) and tinnitus, and have been exploring LLLT for this--there is a huge thread on tinnitustalk.com filled with people who have been over the world checking out the best clinics, the best lasers, etc. Seems it is an "iffy" project, but some people do improve significantly (some do not) if they persist; am tempted by the Konftec emLas, which one can get with either 2 808nm laser ear fitted diodes, or, more expensively of course, both those and 2 660 laser diodes. These things of course are not cheap...but much cheaper than most of their competitors...and as lasers should be handled with protective goggles. In the meantime I am trying the Vielights in my ears and maybe, maybe.... Have any of you tried anything for tinnitus/hearing loss?
 

ScottTriGuy

Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.
Messages
1,402
Location
Toronto, Canada
Thanks for the updates Chris - especially your improvements following Kahn's concept.

I too would be interested in treating tinnitus. So annoying.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
@Scott; I am learning--I am a slow learner on this kind of stuff--that one swallow does not a summer make--but that has to be balanced by "no summer, no swallows." Last night I pushed my experiment a bit further, and took 5 minutes of the 633 in each ear, followed by 25 mins of the 810 split between both ears. I slept well, and woke up to silence--no tinnitus! I followed that up this morning by 20 mins of the 633 and 810 simultaneously, switching ears at half-time. Then later applied both MED-X units to my ears for about 8 mins, using 10hz pulsing. As of now, 4 p.m., I still have silence. What I do not know is whether my high frequency hearing has begun to improve too--only time will tell, and am sure the tinnitus will return in a while--it disappeared in the evening after my first trial of the 810, but returned.

However, these experiences do suggest that LLLT may indeed be useful, and maybe I can add this one to the list of symptoms which have improved over the last 8 months. But alas I still have low energy, and low exercise tolerance, though the nature of the punishment PEM has changed and moderated considerably. Maybe....
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
This post is in two parts, the second focused on the tinnitus issue, which several seem interested in.

I have come across two interesting papers, the first by Bozkurt A, “Safety assessment of near infrared light emitting diodes for diffuse optical measurements.” This makes the point that though there is no or very little danger of heating from the radiated light, the diodes themselves can emit considerable heat, and skin burns can result from direct contact.

The second is Khan I, “Molecular pathway of near-infrared laser phototoxicity involves ATF-4 orchestrated ER stress.” This one deserves a close reading. The lead researcher, Praveen Arany, is a dentist working within NIH who recently succeeded in using lasers to stimulate stem cell repair of damage within a tooth–unfortunately a rat tooth; maybe this is a treatment coming to a dentist near you one day, some day, maybe?? While reassuring us that there is no danger of DNA damage, surface heating is a possibility, as is damage from Reactive Oxygen Species. The latter, interestingly, can be moderated by NAC and Catalase, the former of which is widely recommended for us as a precursor of Glutathione. Such ROS can trigger cellular stress responses, and one partial answer is to take NAC–recall that Glutathione is a key intracell antioxidant which is low or damaged in us. Another answer is once again to remember the basic principle of “hormesis,” the adjustment of dose–not too little, but definitly not too much. But of course they do not suggest specific dose levels for specific conditions. Up to us.

Here are key parts of his conclusion: “The primary photochemical event mediating PBM appears to involve generation of Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS) following absorption by various cellular chromophores, especially cytochrome C oxidase in mitochondria [we all knew that]. The ROs thus generated has the ability to activate several extracellular and intracellular biological pathways. A significant barrier in enabling more widespread use of PBM therapy is our lack of understanding of target tissue parameters and biological responses that has prevented our ability to outline precise device (source, wavelength, dose and delivery) parameters for effective clinical treatment protocols.”
“Previous studies have postulated that the levels of ROS generation could determine the transition from the therapeutic to detrimental biological responses. A similar phenomenon has been observed by toxicologists using various doses of environmental agents termed Hormesis. Indeed, our previous study noted one of the beneficial effects of low amounts of laser-generated excessive ROS involves activation of latent TGF-31 and promotes wound-healing and regneration. Laser generated ROS and concomitant rise in temperature appear to act together to generate phototoxicity. Neutralization of heat or ROS rescues phototoxicity both in vitro and in vivo. The increase in laser-induced tissue temperature appears to reduce activity of crucial cellular ROS neutralizing enzymes Catalase and Glutathione Reductase, which lead to detrimental oxidative damage as shown previously.” . He is clear that there is no “evidence for genotoxicity or mutagenicity” involved, but there is the potential for damage nevertheless. Since we with ME have well evidenced difficulty in clearing ROS, we should take this warning seriously–once more, go low and slow, and take breaks; this is powerful stuff.

So on to my tinnitus update. I was without it for two days, then it came back at moderate level, and has now again diminished . Its reappearance was synchronous with a low barometric storm, which reminded me that I have always been very sensitive to pressure changes. Its resolution or partial resolution comes with a return of high pressure and clear sky. But it is also quite clear that the Vielights have been playing a major role in this–it was my first trial of the 810 that to my surprise gave me an evening of clear ears. Which leaves open the question of just how this effect is being produced–systemic, or local? Is tinnitus produced locally in the ear apparatus, which seems pretty well enclosed in bone, or also in the brain’s processing? Somehow the 810 shone into my nasal cavity but aimed further towards my brain managed to have some effect, and clearly shining the lights directly into my ear canal is having a stronger effect. But they do not adapt to this use gracefully–the nose clip prevents a clean presentation of the tip of the diode housing into the ear canal, producing mild discomfort.

I have also begun checking my ears’ frequency response with a test CD; rather crude, but it gives single frequency checks in the high range (where I have suffered significant though not crippling loss), and using exactly the same setting on the volume control and using high quality headphones I can roughly measure my current range, and see if there is any improvement with time. If this stuff can improve tinnitus, as it clearly can in my case, it may also be able to improve my hearing.

I have two thoughts, both costing money. The first is that Lew Lim makes additional “adaptors” (diode housings with cable) available at $100 for the 633 and $175 for the 810. I could cut off the clip portion and, I am fairly sure, apply the diode housing directly to my ear canal, though would have to hold it there for the duration of the treatment.

Or I could spend more money and buy a Konflec emLas system for rather more, depending on whether I chose 808 or 660 lasers–though I am told I could choose one of each. These units are laser, not LED, and considerably more powerful than the Vielights, though not extravagantly–around 90 or 50 mW–the V 633 is rated at 10mW, the 810 at 7.5mW (the effect of pulsing). Or of course I could continue as I am without further expense and see how it goes, putting up with mild discomfort while I await further results.

But in the meantime I am dealing with a crash, primarily a noticeable loss of energy from an already low level. I think it may have been provoked by overuse of the Vielights, prompted by the excitement of realizing that they, or maybe better the Konftec units, might actually improve my hearing. I think I made the risky and almost certainly mistaken assumption that light directed into my ears would remain there, and not have to be counted in my daily dosing. I was using both Vielights daily–50 mins together–and also both simultaneously for 20 mins, so for 40 mins together, for a grand total of 90 mins. I think that was clearly too much, and I am paying the price. That at least is my current hypthesis. So I end with a warning, strengthening things I have written before (go low, slow, take breaks), aimed particularly at those using a Vielight. Don’t underestimate these little devices. They are very small and low powered and basically very safe, but over time they deliver a functional dose. Treat them with respect and do not overdose. The same applies of course to larger units used on the body or head. This is powerful stuff capable of much good, but also capable of some forms of damage if overused. I think I am experiencing that right now–they have proved capable of lessening or even abolishing my tinnitus, and maybe will even improve my hearing, but I think I will have to focus on one issue at a time–ME or my ears. Trying to treat both simultaneously may be asking for trouble.
 

student

Senior Member
Messages
166
@Chris, @Hip and more readers!
I have looked for other german developments in light therapie- . Here in English http://h24.com.hk/repuls/ a 632nm red-light mashine seem promissing. Our CFS metabolism is much less effective – in managing sideproducts. The healthy organism has need of therapy pause (& Puls mode). Also starting low and slow will be a key value for more effective CFS Therapy.

A Leukotrien (12.oxo LTB 4) metabolism is thought to be influenced. – Details were given for scin and arthritis conditions starting 2009. SEE a simplistiqu description of of UV reaktion products… ; @ Page 8- from a practitioner in Swizerland. http://www.strack.ch/data/media/article/2797/repuls_grundlagen.pdf
Or German yt of this device:

regards :( student

A Puls mode is chosen: pauses were chosen – for healthy metabolism - 2,5 light impulses / per second. http://www.chemomedica.at/cat.php?id=82&PHPSESSID=92e253a3bcd55b3dd8f09bdfd21312bf
how much more are they needed for CFS
 

student

Senior Member
Messages
166
Hey @Chris! That is great to see changes. And that one is so positive.
At the verry beginning of tinitus – we can still do something. I would put the finger in my ear. Just in the first seconds, it comes. With strong movments you can move the outer ear canal for about 90- 180 seconds. One inch and more into difrent directions. The Rational in this action, is to bring any perfusion problems that wer there into a completely diffrent region of that capillary bed. In more than 80% this procedure has helped with beginning tinitus.
 

student

Senior Member
Messages
166
– Danger of Radiation-Cataract!! (Have a talk with your eyedoktor befor you start head therapy.)

@Hip and others! We will all have cataract one day. Without reason it has often developed in many younger people, before they get 65- 70 years old. NATURAL Sunlight though, is one well known factor for the early form of cataracts. But!! With any use of Near-Infrared therapy though… It would be likely to agravate in weeks (up to 6 mounth). All depending on a quantity of chosen therapy. To the detail, these things were not measured in quantity yet. Plus others… What some of us sugested here can never be safe - for your retina of the eye.

This page talks of „eye damage.“ http://www.prestylusa.com/the-technology/fake-infared-vs-far-infared And with the wavelength of NEAR-infrared specifically cataracts and retina changes are prone to happen. So there is – clear warnings! – Never use much Red – (near infrared) LED light near the eye – from any direction. Especially not near – from your front head. (Pointing inwards you can destroy Makula also.– Your central reading and sharp vision is not safe.)

Lets put it that way: The one-front-position of a veilight "Neuro" (810 nm) device – it will have to be judged after 3- 5 years for all questions of the eye./ Lets come back to save ground – and please stopp – some things you wanted to trie!
 
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Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
@student--many thanks for finding this (in English yet!) description of the basic parameters of the Repuls unit. In overall power it is quite close to the MED-X units I am using--they are rated at 1/2 watt too. I can set them at 2 or 3 pulses per second--but not at 2.5! And though they contain 10 diodes at 633nm, the majority (116) are set at 870nm. I don't know if the LED diodes used in the Repuls units are basically the same, but they are obviously getting much more power from them if they are--50 mW--though I think Lew Lim is now getting somewhere near that from the 810 diodes used in the Neuro.

Interestingly, the Repuls literature aims at inflammation, and discusses in some detail how that works. I am totally unfamiliar with this LTB4 pathway--sorry! But the literature also recognizes the well-established effect on the enzymes in the chain of reactions that produce ATP, and recognize too that ATP is a signaling molecule as well as the basic unit of cellular energy.

One thing is very noticeable; the design project began by aiming at reducing skin inflammation and pain, and then added muscular problems. I would not doubt that these units are very capable for those problems, and am still very intrigued by the reasons given for that 2.5 pulsing, which will deepen the penetration achieved. But I do also notice that there is no reference to transcranial use, and here I think units like the MED-X or Kahn's LED units should be considerably more effective--there is broad agreement that lengthening the light wave achieves better depth penetration, and Lew Lim's choice of 810nm and the MED units 870 should be more effective here. But the specifics of that anti-inflammation process, that seems to depend on an 633nm wavelength, are also intriguing, and will look for more information on that. Incidentally, Lew Lim chose a pulse rate of 10 to be in tune with a basic brain rhythm-- I guess the brain uses a variety of rhythms, and 2.5 may be one of them, but have no real info on that, and the brain is clearly not one of the target areas aimed at by the Repuls units.

Hope someone can add to my inadequate understanding of these inflammatory pathways! And thanks again, Student, for adding helpful and very interesting material to the discussion!
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
@student; as far as I know, the danger to the eye from sensibly used LEDs in the power range normally used in LLLT is essentially zero. Lasers of course can do damage, but in practice it seems virtually all the low level lasers have some degree of divergence built into them, and it seems there have been virtually no instances of real damage, though of course proper protective goggles are nearly always used--and clearly should be used. Lew Lim does mention the small degree of danger present with his 655 laser unit, and I have deliberately stayed away from it.

I think it is wise not to stare into any of these units, and that certainly applies to things like the MED-X, where there is enough bright visible light from the 10 633 diodes to make one respect the amount of "invisible light" being radiated by the other 116 diodes emitting at 870. I doubt very much that the modest amount of 810 light emitted by the Vielight Neuro and aimed directly at the skull is going to harm anyone's eyes, unless they insist on taking the thing off and staring intently at it while it is on.

And on the other hand, there is increasing use of LLLT to heal the eyes; I am not going to try to document this thoroughly, but will give two fairly recent essays:
Julio C. Rojas, "Low-level light therapy of the eye and brain," in Eye and Brain, 2011, open access;

and Graham Merry, "Treatment of dry Age-related Macular Degeneration with Photobiomodulation," paper given in 2012.

Both papers include a list of references if you wish to delve further.

For the record, at 82 I had cataract surgeries on both eyes some 15 years ago, after damage inflicted by the sun bouncing off the sea on a kayak trip on which I forgot my sunglasses, and some 5 years ago had the common "laser zap" to penetrate "posterior capsule opacification." I have no trace of macular degeneration and still have 20/20 vision.
 

Biarritz13

Senior Member
Messages
699
Location
France
Does someone have head about this?

It's not nasal but kind of related to this topic due to the subject (light therapy).
 
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Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Thanks, Theodore, for bringing this to our attention. One must note that they are not yet offering these units for sale--they are asking us to invest in their product in order to bring it to the market. It looks as if they are trying to do an awful lot of things all at once, some of which I do not understand, but one of which is exactly what a unit like the Vielight 633 is already doing--irradiating the circulating blood in order to increase ATP production by the mitochondria, and trigger other beneficial effects. I think for the time being I will stick with the 633, which has some 30 years of experience behind its design. In the future things may look different, but I do not feeling at the moment like making an investment in the stuff they describe.
 

Biarritz13

Senior Member
Messages
699
Location
France
You're welcome.

Indeed they ask people to fund their project in exchange of a future product delivery, like all of the companies on this website.

Have you an improvement only on your tinnitus?
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
@Theodore; I think their proposal is very different from, say, Lew Lim's strategy with his Vielights. Lew has had products for sale for quite a few years now; he does invite feedback, and distributes free samples of new products to trusted known users for more detailed feedback (I am not on that list!); he funds ongoing research (like the ongoing trial of the Neuro against Alzheimer's ) from those sales, which helps account for what some feel is an inflated price. MED-X too have products for sale. These new people have an idea, and a pre-production model, I think, but as I understand it do not have any products for sale right now--they are looking for investors in a project which may or may not come to market one day.

I have put the hearing/tinnitus battle to one side for the time being, and am focused on recovery from my mild crash--have cut back my use of LLLT radically as part of that process. I intend to start up the hearing/tinnitus battle again in a while, and indeed have bought the diode ("applicator" as Lew Lim calls them) portion of both the 633 and the 810 Vielights when they were put on sale recently, with the intention of cutting off part of the nose clip to make it easier to insert the diode more directly into the ear canal--the nose clip does make that difficult and uncomfortable, though not quite impossible. If that helps, I will post results when they become apparent--either way! ME/CFS and hearing loss/tinnitus are both difficult targets, and success with LLLT is not assured!
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Hi, in case anyone is still following this thread, a few updating comments. First, there seems no doubt that putting the Vielight 633 and 810 units to my ears does reduce tinnitus for a while. Whether they also improve hearing remains to be discovered. Secondly, after reading and thinking about the info about the Repuls units kindly provided by Student, I am more and more convinced that Pulsing is important for us. The study I referred to in a recent post confirmed my previous suspicion that we, with our damaged antioxidant systems, are likely to get into trouble with the ROS that are an inevitable result of increasing production of ATP, which seems well documented for LLLT. The Repuls people have cut back the Pulsing rate to a very low 2.5, though I do not know the Duty Cycle they involve (simply means the % of the time that photons are actually being emitted in pulses). My intiuitive interpretation of experience so far suggests that the 633, which uses Continuous Wave, does do good things for circulatory problems, but is more liable to produce also an inflammatory response. The 810, using a 10hz Pulse rate, and 50% Duty Cycle, seems less liable to produce that response, and Lew Lim has used the same basic parameters in his most recent product, the Neuro (you will find forward looking new material on his Vielight.com site).

I do not know enough about how rapidly ROS can be cleared, but that is the reasoning behind the Repuls choice of 2.5 Hz, and I have now entered a new programme into my MED-X units, with a 6hz Pulse rate and a lowered 40% Duty Cycle, to see how that works out. But I think now that for us, though quite possibly not for other diseases, or not to the same extend, both Pulsing and Duty Cycle will be important parameters. I recall Paul Cheney's argument that "Oxygen is toxic to us", and so on. We will know more about how effective the Neuro is for Alzheimer's in a while; we can perhaps hope that it will also be tested with ME, but after two Kahn patients have said that he had decided that he had been overtreating them, people may be cautious about testing their stuff on us.

Anyway, my experience so far suggests that this stuff is capable of good effects--my varicose veins, blood pressure regulation, and sleep have all improved. Now I will see if a reduced protocol using mainly pulsed and lower dose treatment --with breaks--will finally improve energy and other symptoms.