• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

LED red intranasal light therapy

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Hi, Hollie--I really can't comment on your various symptoms or what disease you might have, or why your energy dropped off so quickly after stopping a NSAID. If one of the Vielight phone advisors told you that the 810 was the best for sleep, I would go with that--I have found them pretty well-informed. I would go with the 810--it has proved helpful to a good many, and is listed by both the FDA and Health Canada as "safe." You can find a good deal of info on both the vielight.com and mediclights.com websites. I think you should experience some improvement in sleep in less than a week, but there is considerable variation in responses to these devices.
Good luck! Chris
 

helsbells

Senior Member
Messages
302
Location
UK
I have ME amongst other things but my most pressing problem is chemical sensitivity and most immediately of all a dust allergy that triggers Trigeminal nerve pain in my eye from even minute exposures. I have been reading about phototherapy specifically in relation to this as I am desperate - I never know whether as mine is a different mechanism whether it would still work the same. Obviously there is a broader application for the cognitive side of things too as I have severe brain fog but for now I would settle for feeling like I am being stabbed in the eye and worry about that later. has anyone had any diminished sensitivity to inhalants through use of this method. Also can anyone shed any light on specifications and efficacey? For example my cheap intranasal device picked up from a local UK chemist cost about £10-£15 and states it uses "Red LED 660 nm (+/- 5nm) (nanometers) Infrared Red 940nm (+/-10nm)" Obviously I assume the 810 is offering something more but can anyone direct me to technical information which will educate me about the different technical specifications? Many thanks anyone who takes the time to reply.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Hi,; Helsbells; I know nothing about chemical sensitivity, or about the cheap device you got from your chemist, but I do know something about the Vielights--I now have and use both the 633 and the 810. The 633 uses a LED at 633nm--a clear red light--and is designed to irradiate the large capillary bed in the nasal cavity to affect the blood flow. It might well improve your allergic hyperresponsiveness, though I don't know that for certain. It will improve your blood flow--I have a friend who has suffered Deep Vein Thrombosis twice, and needs both a daily low dose aspirin and a high compression stocking. After using a 633 for two months she found she could walk without the stocking and not suffer pain and swelling any more. Both the 633 and 810 improve sleep, though not in my experience to the point that one sleeps 8 hours a night without trouble. The specifications on the 633 are simple--one LED diode at 633nm, continuous wave, low output.

The 810 is a differently aimed device, giving a pulsed LED at 810nm, invisible because infrared, pulsed at 10hz because that meshes with one of the brain's wavelengths. It uses a higher and pulsed wavelength to give better penetration, hoping to reach the brain through the thin bone separating the brain from the nasal cavity. The intent is to reach those parts of the brain stem and cerebellum that control the autonomic nervous system and other functions.

Both devices incorporate a tiny lens into the transparent plastic housing to control aim and diffusion. Lew Lim, the CEO of the outfit, has spent years researching this stuff, and has some of the top researchers in both the US and China on his advisory board. Your cheap device may do some good, but I am pretty confident that they cannot match the sophistication and specificity of Lew Lim's devices, expensive though they are. And very well built--strong and durable. With an 80% money back guarantee if they do not improve things.

Don't expect quick miracles, but you can find lots of information about them on the two websites, vielight.com and mediclights.com. There you will find a link to a recent short paper he posted at a conference giving details of how the 810, later joined by the 633, substantially improved a man with Alzheimers (or was it vascular dementia?) over the period of a year. The 810 and 633 are nicely complementary in their action. I have no miracles to report, but my general state and sleep have definitely improved, and I am continuing to use them (and other things not ready to report on yet) and continue to hope.

Lew Lim has a new device, the Neuro, which combines a beefed up version of the 810 with four small transcranial units to produce a minihelmet thing, powered by a rechargeable battery; it looks very interesting, but I shall wait for substantial feedback before considering it--though they offer a discount to owners of the 810, it is expensive--$1,500.

I suggest spending some time on the two websites I gave--there is a lot of information there, though not always laid out in the most immediately accessible way.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Thanks, Fogbuster, for the link to a very interesting and informed blog--will spend some time absorbing this and some of the links he gives. I definitely agree with his comments on "hormesis" and the necessity of not pushing--it is probably OK to use the very low level 633 and 810 every day, but there is no doubt I pushed too hard using the MED-X units transcranially, and have now backed off to every second day, with a week's break every two or three weeks. But I have some reading to do now! Thanks again.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,308
Location
Ashland, Oregon
dust allergy that triggers Trigeminal nerve pain in my eye from even minute exposures ...... I have severe brain fog

Hi @helsbells,

This may seem like it's coming out of left field, but I've noticed a pretty significant correlation between my own eye issues and brain/cognitive issues. I recently started doing saline eyewashes, and not only found them soothing, but noticed they've pretty consistently perked up my brain at the same time. The saline formula I use is 1 teaspoon of Himalayan salt to 1 pint of water. I do about a minute plus for each eye, alternating every 20-30 seconds.

There's more I could add, but will hold off unless I hear back from you. I feel some of my recent discoveries in this area (including natural vagus nerve stimulation) warrants a thread all by itself. -- Your stabbing eye pain and trigeminal nerve pain sounds pretty horrible. I hope you can find something that will help!

Best, Wayne
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I've come to this thread having just read Norman Doidge's latest book and read about intranasal light therapy. I started reading this long thread a few days ago and, cheapskate that I am, bought the Lloyds Pharmacy Allergy Reliever (£14 incl. p&p), which I tried last night.

Yes, the Rudolph effect! Worth it just for that. It switches itself off after 3 minutes and the inside of my nose felt a little sore so I decided not to do it for a longer period. I have some year-round nasal congestion which may be allergy-related - who knows? - but I'm interested in these devices for my insomnia.

@Chris, thanks for writing in such detail about your experience. I clearly need to go and take a proper look at the Vielight website.

I'm wondering how everyone else got on over the long term, since it seems to have been a bit hit and miss for many, with some possible overstimulation (or something) with certain devices and certain timings/schedules.
 
Last edited:

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
This is an update on my experiences with LLLT /LED therapy to date. I did check out Selfhacked’s site, but found the information a bit miscellaneous, and his interview with Hamblin rather disconcerting–this did not sound like the careful researcher I have read, frankly. I have come across methyline blue before, but am a bit wary of using stuff sold for aquarium use in my own body. His suggestion for a cheap red LED device for muscle use may well be a great buy, though since the MED-X units I already have fill that slot, I will continue to use them.

I am now still using the Vielight 633 and 810 on a basically daily schedule, though I sometimes drop one or the other just as a cautionary gesture. I also use the two more powerful transcranial MED-X units on a less regular basis, averaging about 30 minute sessions two or three times a week, then breaking for a week or 10 days; during those sessions, I mostly use them pulsed at 10hz and 50% duty cycle, which means that they are only actually sending photons 50% of the time. If I feel impatient, I send the same dose in less time at 80% duty cycle. I vary the areas of my skull that I cover, with special attention to the top of the neck and base of the skull–I have learned that this is an area to which Fred Kahn pays special attention when treating ME/CFS.

I can report some areas of clear improvement. I sleep better, using the 633 just before I go to bed, and have a little more general energy, though I still all too clearly have ME/CFS. Exercise still leads to some PEM, but the effects are shorter and less intense.

One specific symptom I have long had is a serious rise in BP a while after moderate exercise, accompanied by mid body pain; this is now much reduced, and I have not seen Systolic pressures like 190 for quite some time. To partially compensate, my HR does go up a bit more–my best guess is that the Vielight 810 is getting to work slowly on my Autonomic Nervous System regulation of my blood circulation. I also can see that the surface varicose veins on my upper right calf are improving a bit in appearance–they have never caused pain or swelling, but something is happening there. I attribute this largely to the V 633, though I sometimes put a MED-X unit over them too.

I also used to suffer often from pain in my right foot when I went to bed–never during the day, or during a walk, but always at night just after going to bed. That is now happening only rarely, and with less intensity.

In general, I am feeling better, more upbeat days, fewer and less intense really down days. I think this is good stuff, and of course intend to continue. I think the rough and variable protocol I am following seems to work, more or less. It is based partly on what I have been able to find of protocols used for MS, which is the disease nearest to our own–much closer than Parkinson’s or Alzheimer’s, I think.

There is a paper by Cezary Peszynski-Drews et al., "Laser biostimulation of the patients suffering from MS in respect of biological influence of laser light," dated 2003, which gives little detail, but concludes that taking breaks may be important, and that "sometimes, temporary deterioration of mental comfort, accompanied by intensified pain is observed during the irradiation, most often between the sixth and eighth session." I think that chimes in a rough way with the negative turn in my own experience that recounted before; I have also had a friend who experienced a mild headache on first using the 633, something I did not go through.

There are also two papers on MS using a mouse model from Jeri-Anne Lyons (first author K.A. Muili–PMID 22292010 and 23840675) that support the basic model of using relatively low doses and taking breaks. There is also Michael Hamblin’s important "Nuts and Bolts" paper (and another paper on "Biphasic Dose Response in Low Level Light Therapy-an Update") supporting the use of a moderate rather than high dose.

In short, I am happily continuing to use the devices I bought, and think in particular that using a 633, and even more one backed up by an 810–they are nicely compelementary–should be of help to most people. That can be further supported by adding transcranial units, but those demand more careful use, and just the intranasal units seem capable over the long term of creating improvement. The friend I mentioned in my previous post is still happily using her 633.

A last note; there is good evidence that this form of therapy does work on the mitochondrial chain that leads to the production of ATP, thereby increasing cellular energy, which also increases the production of Reactive Oxygen Species, which are then mopped up by intracellular antioxidants, notably glutathione. But we know that the last is low in us, so I suspect that this is what causes trouble if we try too hard for quick results with this stuff; the last lot of ROS generated may not have been cleared before we shoot in more energizing photons. And so they build up, and cause fatigue and pain. So space interventions, and don’t try to hurry things up. Lew Lim says that one can use his Vielight units twice a day, but leave at least 6 hours between. I aim at a minimun of 10 hours between my session with the 633 and that with the 810. If I use the MED-X units, then I drop one of the Veilight sessions. I am overall persuaded that this is good and helpful stuff if used with careful moderation.

@Sasha–do go to the Mediclights site, which contains much more information.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
@Sasha; a device that turns itself off after 3minutes and leaves a sore nose does not sound good to me! It suggests a rather high powered thing--do you know anything about it? I have never had a sore nose with the Vielight devices, though it is possible some have. If sleep is your main focus, and nasal congestion and allergies may have a role there, the 633 would help, I think, though it is possible it might trigger a few small blood clots at first--it did in the case of my friend--I guess as part of a healing process--they soon stopped, and have not returned. In my case, both devices help to unclog my nose, and both help sleep.

In fact, the best for sleep might just be the laser 655--it is obliquely referred to on p. 154 of Doidge's book, though for some reason he does not name it or its maker. But that, being a laser, carries a small -apparently very small-risk of damaging the retina if looked at directly, so I have not tried it. Both the 633 and the 810 help me sleep, and I have still not quite decided which does the better job.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Thanks very much for the detailed reply, Chris! I'll print that off and read it carefully. I need to reread the Norman Doidge chapter, clearly! That's great that you've had some overall improvement. I also have ANS problems. Sleep just happens to be the issue I decided to tackle at this time (I pick a symptom every few months and throw everything at it to see if I can improve it) but something that can be generally helpful would be great.

@Sasha; a device that turns itself off after 3minutes and leaves a sore nose does not sound good to me! It suggests a rather high powered thing--do you know anything about it?

I don't have any info about its power output, only the wavelengths - 660nm and 940nm. I do wonder if I damaged the inside of my nose some years ago when I used to use some sort of "cold defence" nasal spray and had to stop when I had a nosebleed (first ever in my life) - so this may be my sensitivity rather than the device. I worry a bit that this might mean that the Vielight won't be suitable for me.

Chris said:
In fact, the best for sleep might just be the laser 655--it is obliquely referred to on p. 154 of Doidge's book, though for some reason he does not name it or its maker. But that, being a laser, carries a small -apparently very small-risk of damaging the retina if looked at directly, so I have not tried it. Both the 633 and the 810 help me sleep, and I have still not quite decided which does the better job.

I also want to avoid a laser - I'd prefer an LED device.

Lots to think about there!

Thanks again.
 
Last edited:

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
This is interesting, on Erica Verillo's site (which I didn't know existed) - don't know if it's already been posted. It's about a trial of light therapy in GWI patients (our sister disease, probably closer than MS), using the Vielight, MedX and a Photomedex helmet. They're doing a placebo-controlled RCT in 160 patients, following promising results in a pilot trial. They started recruiting in April 2015 and are still recruiting - here's the study on clinicaltrials.gov.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Just listened to the interview with Dr Mike Hamblin - I agree with @Chris that it's not the most cautious interview that I've ever heard, but fascinating nonetheless. It had some very interesting nuggets in, none of which I can remember - will have to go back through it.

He mentioned at the end that he has a book coming out at the end of the year but already has some - he seems to be "Michael R. Hamblin" and his latest seems to be £146-worth :( of the Handbook of Photomedicine (Nov 2013).
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Some resources from the Vielight site (I agree with Chris that it's not well-organised):

MECHANISMS OF LOW LEVEL LIGHT THERAPY by Michael R. Hamblin (overview paper)

THE POTENTIAL OF INTRANASAL LIGHT THERAPY FOR BRAIN STIMULATION by Lew Lim

PMC list of medical research papers on low level light therapy

Some general sources of info on photobiomodulation

An interesting safety and side-effects page, including side-effects for first-time users

Vielight channel on YouTube

On the MedicLights site:

Lew Lim (inventor of the Vielight?) has a blog where he's still answering questions, as of May this year. One particularly interesting comment in the light (no pun intended) of @Chris's experience:

Lew Lim said:
They are complementary. The photons of the 633 are largely absorbed in the capillaries of the nasal areas and subsequently distributed throughout the body. The photons of the 810 mostly bypass the capillaries and penetrate the immediate areas of the brain – mainly in the underside. A growing number of users combine them for more holistic benefits.

Evidence for specific conditions including insomnia.

A natural treatment for insomnia and sleep disorder
by Lew Lim
 
Last edited:

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I'm wondering how the light makes it through your hair! Mike Hamblin said in the interview with selfhacker that he applies his LEDs to his forehead because otherwise his hair would block the light. Maybe it's a question of the power output of the device and it all being relative.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Still gathering info... here's Dr Sarah Myhill on light therapy generally:

Dr Sarah Myhill said:
Light Therapy
To the Ancient Greeks and Romans, the sun was Apollo’s fiery chariot making its way across the sky, bringing life-giving light to the planet. Apollo was the god of medicine and healing as well as of sun and light.

Ultraviolet [‘’UV’’] light kills all microbes. How do I know that? It is already used to sterilise water for drinking and swimming pools. Sunshine was the main treatment for TB in pre-antibiotic era. Please see these links for an interesting history of this treatment - Heliotherapy and Treatment of TB patients .

I suspect the reason we love sunbathing is because light penetrates the skin and kills these microbes, thereby reducing our infectious burden. This means we spend less energy on the immune system, leaving more energy for other things. More energy is available for a mental and physical life! In addition, sunshine is a good treatment for infectious skin conditions such as acne and eczema.

Light as a treatment for infection has been used for years for serious infections. The patient was treated by removing a pint of blood, irradiating it, then returning it to the body. The problem with this treatment is, again, that it is high tech and expensive. However, equally good results can be obtained by intranasal light.

This makes perfect sense – the nasal mucosa is thin so light can easily get to the blood stream. The nose is well perfused with blood and so it is easily radiated. But most importantly the results obtained with intranasal light are as good as with intravenous treatment. Indeed, it may be that intranasal light impacts directly on the brain and this could be helpful for any patient with brain pathology and/or fermenting brain. See Mediclights

I am asking myself what is the mechanism of action? I do not like the reasons given in this link which are not mechanisms but rather descriptions. I suspect the mechanism is that the light kills microbes and that this both makes the blood less sticky (and so it flows better) and also reduces the work of the immune system.

Remember Dr Les Simpson from New Zealand, who described rouleaux formation [stacks of red blood cells] in the red cells of CFS patients? See Rouleaux is a marker of infection. Simpson showed that red cells in CFS sufferers stick together in clumps.

This would have a dire effect on blood supply because blood would not flow through tiny capillaries and so fuel and oxygen delivery would be seriously impaired. Clearly, this would impact adversely on energy delivery mechanisms. (Simpson suggested treatment with essential fatty acids - these I prescribe these routinely in CFS).

As you can see from the pictures and videos, light restores normal circulation by unclogging these red cells. See Youtube video Vielight - Blood Disaggregation These results are obtained after just 25 minutes of light therapy. My guess is that these red cells are sticky because of the presence of microbes in the blood – the idea here is that light kills these microbes.

Other observations on light therapy
TB sufferers treated with sunshine could not immediately tolerate full body exposure. Special trolleys were designed which could be pushed out onto balconies so initially just the feet were exposed, then legs, trunk and finally the whole body. Too much sun too soon made them ill – this could possibly be a Herxheimer reaction?

Dr Horowitz comments that 50% of his Lyme patients were intolerant of sunshine- again possibly a Herxheimer reaction?

Doxycycline, often used to treat Lyme disease, can cause light sensitivity – again perhaps the mechanism of this is a Herx reaction?

The Vielight device (or Bionase - much less expensive)
The device that supplies this light can be seen at Intranasal-light-therapy-device-category Ten million have been sold, mostly in Russia and China. The conditions for which there is an excellent evidence base for positive responses include high blood pressure, high LDL cholesterol, diabetes, atherosclerosis, asthma, stroke, cancer, immune system deficiencies, infections, rheumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia and psoriasis. All these conditions can be explained by fermenting gut and allergy/infection to microbes spilling over from the gut.

This device uses near infrared light - interestingly there is some evidence that this "kick starts" mitochondria to produce more ATOP - the energy molecule. See Infrared Light Therapy Runs Ahead of Science.

We have just found a very similar device which emits light at a very similar frequency (630 as opposed to 633 for the Red (Qi-Light) device from Vielight) which should work just as well but is much cheaper. See Bionase Revolutionary medical device

And in addition there is another device which operates at the slightly higher frequency of 660, which again is cheaper and should work as well. See Medisana Medinose 45020

I am excited by this idea – it makes perfect sense, is biologically plausible, free from side effects and can be done at home with no medical input.

Remember – there is no point killing the wretches in the blood if you are feeding them in the gut!! YOU MUST ALSO DO THE DIET. And remember that here, the ketogenic diet is preferred.

As ever, I look forward to feedback from my patients!

Related Articles
External Link
  • Many thanks to Hannah Moss for linking me to this piece -- New Scientist Article "Burst of light speeds up healing by turbocharging our cells" This article states that "The effect on cells of near-infrared light, which has a wavelength of 670 nanometres, was first reported 40 years ago. The light causes mitochondria, the cell's powerhouses, to produce more ATP, a compound that provides the cell's energy." So, given that the devices noted above operate at similar wavelengths, this is further evidence of benefit. In addition, it explains why we all feel better for sunbathing!
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK

@Chris, did you notice this section:

Lew Lim said:
Another point to consider is how do we maximise the benefits from the use of the Neuro or the 810 Infrared? Since the DMN is activated when we are not performing any task, and usually when our eyes are closed, we want to apply the Neuro or the 810 Infrared intranasal devices with our eyes closed.85
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Interesting experience here by someone on Cort's site (suprising that there was no further discussion!):

ScottTriGuy said:
Hi Cort,

This is my first post - I wanted to share my positive experience with laser therapy - in early April I was reading Dr. Norman Doidge's most recent book on neuroplasticity, The Brain's Way of Healing, and his chapter on laser therapy lead me to surmise that it may help with some of my m.e. symptoms.

Fortunately, the doctor profiled in the book works in my home town and I now use a laser therapy device to treat myself at home. I started with daily treatment and on the third day I was able to walk for 15 minutes without ill effect (first time in 6 weeks!) - fatigue decreased, cognitive fog decreased, bowel movements normalized, pain in back of head/neck decreased, breathing more normal, heart beat more normal, anxiety decreased, more normal sleep. However, low body temperature did not change.

I rented a home unit and treated myself daily. I improved a lot the first 10 days then had a high anxiety period that tapered off over a week - while better then before laser therapy, I have not quite returned to the level of wellness as the first 10 days. The doctor wonders if 'its too much' so now we're experimenting with every other day treatment, that I started a few days ago. I've noticed the shortness of breath, pounding heart and sleep disturbances have returned mildly but hope to complete 2 weeks of every other day before I see the doc again.

In short, daily laser therapy on my brain stem has dramatically helped some of my symptoms (Doidge purports laser therapy helps ATP production, immune modulation, and cellular modulation) allowing me to be more productive.

Thanks for all your work and providing space to share info and experiences.

Scott