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Lecture by Dr Montoya from Feb. 2018, partly on antiviral treatment

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Wonkmonk, Mar 4, 2018.

  1. SunMoonsStars

    SunMoonsStars Senior Member

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    Hi
    What are the levels of CMV IGG that warrant it to be reactivated ? I can’t find this info anywhere. My IGG is about 20 and I heard 15 and higher warrants highly positive. But just read that on old thread of patient mentioning that cut off.
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Dr Dantini uses a rule of thumb that if your herpesvirus IgG titers are 4 times higher the average titer level that the general population get when tested by that particular lab test, it indicates an active infection in the context of ME/CFS. Ref: here

    That sounds like a simple rule, but unfortunately it's not easy to get info on the average titer levels, although if you write to the lab, they may be able to provide this information.
     
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  3. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    This doctor (I don't know if his reputation, but he sounds good) says there is a drug called Pleconaril that may be effective against enterovirus (17:20). Has it ever been tested in ME/CFS? He also mentions "antiviral + Celecoxib" against FM (15:34).

     
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  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Not hydroxychloroquine but have used mobic and other nsaids but i didnt notice any difference for me.
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    It depends on what units of measurement the lab uses. At the time it was above 1 was a possible active infection and eg .5 would be a past infection thats dormant?? i was 1 point something after several months of avs, it was a while back so memory is ify. I could only get it tested once which i think because i fell through the cracks. The second time i tried to get a titre level tested tgey said no only hiv people can get those tested????
     
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, Dr Chia gave pleconaril to some ME/CFS patients while the drug was available from the pharmaceutical company on compassionate release program (but the drug it no longer available at all now). It helped a bit, but at the end of the 4 month treatment, most patients relapsed with 1 or 2 weeks of discontinuation. Ref: 1

    Pleconaril is not the ideal drug for treating the non-cytolytic enteroviruses that Dr Chia thinks are driving ME/CFS, as pleconaril cannot directly target non-cytolytic infections.

    The enterovirus antiviral ribavirin also works to some degree, but this is a drug that can create serious side effects in long term use. I don't know anyone who is taking ribavirin as a long term ME/CFS treatment.

    There is a desperate need to develop enterovirus antivirals, as ribavirin is the only one we have.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  7. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    So I've seen some parts of the video and I've read the whole transcription.
    I think this is a very good and informative talk.
    Dr Montoya's position regarding anti virals is the opposite of what some researchers have advocated, ex Naviaux , but he has data from a trial and from personal experience to back his stance.
    I find it hard to accept that after many decades there is not a conclusion about the role of virus in the genesis and manteinance of ME/CFS because there was some good initial research pointing in that direction, from Dr Lerner and Dr Chia.
    It's not difficult to replicate initial findings from muscle and gastric bx , so what went wrong?
    any comments, @Hip ?
     
  8. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    My IgG CMV titers are more than ten times the average titer level, I'm trying to convince my infectologist to order me a PCR to check viral load.
    She says that even if it comes positive it's difficult to act based on this information, Anti CMV drugs are too much expensive and tere is liver toxicity issues...
     
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  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I can never understand why there is so little interest in ME/CFS viral research.



    If you get a negative PCR result, it does not mean you don't have an infection, in the world of ME/CFS.

    In ME/CFS, viral test results are interpreted differently to the way ordinary infectious disease specialists interpret the results.

    In ME/CFS you often find patients have high antibody titers to coxsackievirus B, echovirus, EBV, HHV-6 or cytomegalovirus.

    But when you perform a PCR test, it may be negative in ME/CFS. An infectious disease specialist will interpret that negative PCR as an indication that there is no chronic infection. But by contrast, an ME/CFS specialist will still interpret high antibody titers, but negative PCR, as evidence for a chronic active infection.


    I recently had some contact with Dr Dantini in Florida, who treats ME/CFS and fibromyalgia with antivirals. He told me that PCR tests he finds of no use in ME/CFS. He only uses antibody tests to detect chronic infections in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia.
     
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  10. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    :thumbsup:Latent intracellular viral or bacterial infection can disrupt some cell functions and cause symptoms, it was shown with HSV, and I can't see why it would not be the case with others... I am not convinced that a reactivation is needed to create clinical outcome.
     
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  11. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    I think the Rituximab results were problematic in this sense, because the time-response pattern pointed away from the viral hypothesis. There is a lecture that I posted last year from Dr Fluge in which he says, this time-response pattern wouldn't be expected if it was a virus, and they treated a chronic active EBV patient with Rituximab and s/he recovered in 3 days.

    So when people thought, Rituximab works in 66% of patients, and it was more or less the only game in town for much of the scientific community, that meant it couldn't be a virus in 66% of patients.
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, some of the herpesviruses have latency states that involve partial reactivation of the virus, where it starts making some viral proteins in the cells, but does not male any viral particles (so you will no detect the viral particles in the blood by PCR).

    In addition, you also have the abortive viral infection theory of Dr Lerner, in which you can have an active viral infection, but no new viral particles are detected.

    And in enterovirus ME/CFS, we know that the virus morphs into its non-cytolytic form, which lives long-term inside cells, but also does not produce any new viral particles (so hence again blood PCR tests will often be negative).
     
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  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Fluge and Mella are not against the viral theories of ME/CFS, to my knowledge.

    The lecture you are referring to I think is at timecode 45:50 in this talk by Dr Fluge, where Dr Fluge says that in the case of chronic active EBV infection (a rare condition which is NOT the same as EBV ME/CFS) involving chronic EBV infection of B-cells, rituximab can cure this illness within 3 days, by killing the B-cells that contain the virus.

    But the disease of chronic active EBV infection has nothing to do with ME/CFS linked to chronic active EBV.



    I think a major reason why ME/CFS viral research (and most ME/CFS biomedical research) is in the doldrums is because of the damage that the psychologists did to ME/CFS, when they tried to make ME/CFS look like a psychogenic "all in the mind" condition.
     
  14. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    Yes, exactly this is the lecture. I might have understood Dr Fluge wrong in this case, he is not ruling out infection. But still the whole Rituximab thing pointed researchers into the direction of an autoimmune cause.
     
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  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It did, though an autoimmune mechanism is quite compatible with a viral mechanism.

    Have a look at this thread: Enterovirus-Induced ANT Autoantibodies: the Cause of ME/CFS?

    This thread details some very interesting German research, which found that patients with chronic enterovirus infections of the heart muscle developed autoantibodies which targeted and disabled the ANT protein on mitochondria in the heart, thus causing a measured energy shortage in the heart muscle. Enterovirus infection seems to trigger the creation of these ANT autoantibodies, which then disable the mitochondria.

    Now since chronic enterovirus infections are commonly found in the skeletal muscles of ME/CFS patients, I wondered whether the same ANT autoantibody might be the cause of ME/CFS, and thus might explain why there appears to be a physical energy shortage in ME/CFS.

    Unfortunately when I tried to contact these researchers, to ask them whether their research might also apply to ME/CFS, they did not answer my emails.
     
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  16. SunMoonsStars

    SunMoonsStars Senior Member

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    What is average level ?
    My test uses Less than or equal to .8 as negative and greater or equal to 1.1 as positive. My result is 19.8 CMV IGG
     
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  17. SunMoonsStars

    SunMoonsStars Senior Member

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    Still trying to get what this average level thing means. ? And how to rate CMV titers.
    What is average level ?
    My test uses Less than or equal to .8 as negative and greater or equal to 1.1 as positive. My result is 19.8 CMV IGG
     
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    In lab reports, the value given for a positive result relates to whether or not you produce antibodies against that pathogen. If you have even been infected with the pathogen in the past, you will usually produce antibodies to that pathogen, even though the infection may no longer be present.

    But in ME/CFS, we are interested in whether you produce high levels of antibodies, as that suggests an active ongoing infection.
     
  19. SunMoonsStars

    SunMoonsStars Senior Member

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    Yes. I know this and I see like with HHV6 they have a good way to determine if your highly positive. HHV-6 foundation states over 1:320 IGG is suggestive. I have 1:1280. But I can’t find any such information on CMV and how to be alrerted it’s in that extra high mode.
     
  20. Mel9

    Mel9 Senior Member

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    Hip, I am starting to wonder if those of us with positive antibodies to Borrelia get ME because somehow these latent viruses also 'wake up'? Has anyone looked at that possibility?
     

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