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A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
Looking at my symptoms, many of which are far less these days and some are gone, it would be easy to figure that I'd just been dealing with some heavy-duty menopausal issues.
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LEARNING FROM A CRASH RELAPSE

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Just a quick reply for now -- yes, definitely very complicated, and many, many factors involved. And yes, many vitamin and/or mineral deficiencies (and protein, electrolyte, carb, fats, etc) can mimick each other.

    So if you're not using Solgar or Jarrow, what brand of mb12 are you using?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Enzymatic Therapy, the one that started it all.
     
  3. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Hi Fred,

    I've been trying to find your studies/ratings/reviews on brands(mb12 brands particularly). I saw some reviews you wrote on iherb.com ,but I guess they are quite old and products might have changed now. On PR I could just find that Jarrow was 5 star,no longer is and ET is 5 star.Whenever possible please share your results of of your brand ratings on these forums. It will be very helpful.Thanks.

    Take care.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Arx,

    I do. The old set of ratings was done in 2003 and review then elsewhere, mostly no longer existant.. At that time I identifed 2 5 star and 1 zero star mb12. The only survivor is Enzymatic Therapy. There are several new candidates and things change over time. I have been learning why ot may be more difficult than we had any idea to keep things consistant. Many brands may have changed. I am going to order some additional posible brands and check them out. Basically the more a brand kicks ass the better it is. The ones that produce stringest startup and strongest brightening and the strongest brightening etc is the one we want. Thaty is effective, Then we need to balance the induced deficiencies and that is where it gets complicated. It's NOT a vacuum either. How welll mb12 may work depends on how well adb12 works and on merthyfolate and on l-carntiine (The Deadlock Quartet is now perfoming) and maybe Boron affects all of that too.

    There are a lot of clues in this paper. It supplies the third leg of funtionality to adcbl and explains so much of the results we have gotten with the active b12 protocol and the Deadlock Quartet.

    Hypotheses in the Life Sciences Volume 2 Issue 2 pp 31-54
    The Very Large Gorilla Sitting in the Room? Adenosylcobalamin is the Missing Link: its Radical and Tetrahydrobiopterin are the Principal in vivo Catalysts for Mammalian Nitric Oxide Synthases.

    Carmen Wheatley
    Orthomolecular Oncology, (registered charity no. 1078066), 4 Richmond Road, Oxford, OX1 2JJ, and St Catherine’s College, Oxford, OX1 3UJ, UK.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...min-the-very-large-gorilla-in-the-room.20229/

    In this real life game of YOU BET YOUR LIFE I put my bets on the Deadlock Quartet and have not only survived but thrived as never before.

    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.
     
  5. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Hi Fred,

    I've always wondered what you mean by 'neurological brightening'. Is it an increase in sensations and pain? And by 'kicks ass' you mean the literal meaning of it,right? So that is the key..the more and/or intensified symptoms one feels with an MB12, that is the right one..?

    By boron are you pointing towards the Anabol Dibencoplex?
    A month back I told someone in the US to get Adb12. I was ordering on iherb and was confused whether to order Anabol or not. There were not many people trying it out(I even started a thread, as usual...lol: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/poll-which-ad-b12-dibencozide-brands-have-you-tried-and-found-effective.19814/)
    Now it seems that would have been a wise choice!

    Thanks! I'll read this.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Arx,

    By neurological brightening I mean literally everything looks brighter, sounds clearer, tastes and smells more and differently, much more rich and saturated. The also means every symptoms of rhe body is felt more clearly. That DOESN'T mean that nausea and spasms and all those symptoms of induced deficiencies of potassium or methylfolate. Also all sorts of parezsthesias in the nerves become apparant that had been ignored or numb. After a while they get more painful starting with shooting pains and so on that decrease to pain which decreases to hypersentitivity and to more or less normal feeling. Pains and so on all dexcrease. When healing started to slow down I was always looking for the item to increase healing. That wasn't the best way as it was quite unbalanced in healing so everythiong just got stuck over and over. Taking the balance of adb12/mb12/mfolate and adding later the carnitine lets all levels of healing coordinate and happen interactively when all the background vitamins and minerals etc are taken. However many pof those are taken at standard doses and some people discover that they need more of various things, whether it is zinc, or D, or p5p or b2 or b1 or whatever. These can be far more difficult to identify and often it is combinations of things, l-carnitine and D-ribose or other things. I find d-ribose makes a just noticable differemnce or me but it doesn't appear significant of anything. A person needs to find each of any number of theings that make a difference for them. Sometimes it does not the first or second time they try something but after adding 2 other things. In other words, everything is always being re-examined.

    There has not been any "final victory". I'm healthy but have some damage that can worsen easily. I'm always adjusting to heal everything that shows up. So far for the past 9.5 years, it has just been solving one layer after another. Each thing peeled reveles another layer of problems, so far. This most recent up right now is the anxiety-carnitine etc connection.
     
  7. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Triff,

    Triffids hmmmm. I have no idea. However, if you areder yourself a jar of this and a jar of the Enzyamtic thereapy b12 and Solgar Metafolin, and take the one kind 1 week taking the metafolin 1 hour before the mb12, and then the other. WIth 28 tablets of each you can do 4 alternations. You should be able to tell very easily. Let us know please.

    has mB12 and metafolin. (I wonder if it tases awful tho).

    Based on the mb12 alone I would put the odds at 50:1 that the Enzymatic Therapy is more effective.

    There are many names for the two active b12 vitamins. Adenosylcoblamin, adenosylb12, adenosylcbl, cobalamide, cobamamide, adocbl, adob12, adb12, adcbl, methylcobalamin, methylb12, methylcbl, mecocbl, mecbl, mb12, mecob12 and other similar ones.
     
  9. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I find the Solgar excellent. At least as good as the old Jarrow (but that was ages ago, maybe my memory is not accurate, maybe I was more deficient then and it just seemed to work well). Nowadays it feels better than the actual Enzymatic Therapy.

    Boron seriously depletes B2, no doubt because it is doing something with it, but beware. Riboflavin is the antidote of choice for Boric Acid poisoning.
    Best wishes!
    Be well!
    Asklipia
    :devil: FFP :devil:
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    As the boron in the adb12 is 20mcg and a daily supplemnt is normally 3 mg we are not talking any kind of poisoning. Why are you trying to scare people?
     
  11. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I am not trying to scare anybody. So I have no answer to your question.
    I was just underlining the possible link between Boron-B2-adb12 which certainly would point to something interesting. You cite a Boron-adb12 connexion, and I just added that since there is a B2-Boron connexion, there must be a step further to think of.

    If this was disturbing I am sorry.
    Best,
    Asklipia
     
  12. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    I have swanson methyl B12 and it kicked my but., so I suppose it is good. Also I like their Active b complex withe methylfolate and active forms of other B´s.
     
    allyb likes this.
  13. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi Freddd

    You made a typo..but you're forgiven LOL. The Anabol Dibencoplex has 200mcg of Boron but that is still far less than 3mg's that you normally see in Boron supps.

    Rand
     
  14. pela

    pela Senior Member

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    Lala, Could you tell us what you are comparing Swanson methyl B12 to? Jarrow? Enzy?
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Quite right. And my multi mineral has 1 mg of boron. 20mcg seemed like an awful small amount. OOOOPS.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    From what I can see boron is useful for arthritis pain which is often inflammatory pain. How exactly it comes into play is still be seen. Perhaps it is a cofactor with b2 in something and b2 is a cofactor in all kinds of things.
     
  17. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    Hi, I tried only Swanson and old Jarrow. I did not see much difference between them, perhaps Swanson seemed to me litlle bit stronger, but it is long time ago, recently I am using only swanson.
     
  18. pela

    pela Senior Member

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    Thx Lala, I plan to give it a try.
     
  19. Holisticgal

    Holisticgal

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    Hi Marlène,
    <<2) What kind of doctor/specialist would be the most indicated to "educate" about methylation>>

    I wanted to point you to the doctor that greenshots (here on this site) has been treating with that treats based on Rich's work and the yasko protocol. Greenshots says she is 95% recovered due to working with this doctor. She is a doctor in California, but runs a practice via skype and 'telemedicine.' Her wait list is until March of 2013. The website is http://autismnti.com/
    She is called a 'biomed doc,' although she is actually a trained NURSE. Thanks for all you write, it is so helpful to read what others are going through so that I can also learn.
    ~Holisticgal
     
  20. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    I also noticed a difference in Jarrow MB12. It evens dissolves differently. They first switched to plastic bottles, and then changed the formula. Or did they do both around the same time? I forget.

    Natural Factors is effective for me and cheap. 5 star? I don't know. The pills feel light and crappy. But they don't have citric acid in them and are real gentle on your gums. They dissolve much faster, but if you keep in in the upper lip you can slow it down. I find them very effective.
     

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