1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
9th Invest in ME International ME Conference, 2014 - Part 2: Pathogens and the Gut
Mark Berry continues his series of articles on the 9th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London, with the emphasis shifting from autoimmunity to pathogens and the gut ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

LEARNING FROM A CRASH RELAPSE

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    883
    Salt Lake City
    In August I had a sudden onset crash and relapse of selected symptoms. However, in the dissection of it the clues that were there much sooner I coul;d have headed it off if I had any idea it was going to get that bad just becasue of a change in the Jarrow. First, I had gotten careless and ignored several minor symptoms. I was running around like an invulnerable 18 year old. I was hiking 4 to 10 miles daily, 2000-4000 vertical feet up and down every day just running around to my RV out in the woods at the far end of dirt roads up on a hillside, the clubhouse, pool, hottub, courts and other facilities and of course intentional hikes into the hills. I had noticed a number of symptoms including the types of pain associated with CNS neurological problems and specifically CNS-mb12 deficiency. I was using a mix of 30mg injected of 3 star mb12 to act as a carrier of 33mgs of sublingual Jarrow and ENZY. That had worked for a couple of years. The percentage of 5 star mb12 was enough to make a noticable difference and keep me on the healing side of equilibrium. At some point early in this year or so, the Jarrow mb12 changed. It was no longer 5 star. The 3mg daily of ENZY mb12 wasn't enough against the background of the other mb12s.

    The sudden onset happened on a record hot day in August. Lots of years we would have had a nighttime frost by then with overnight lows in the 30s at the bottom of the gulch. Not this year. We could go on midnight moonlight walks in the 70s on the hillsides and 50s at the bottom. We had formed a fryers club group that got together and made fresh potato chips, sweet potato chips and such once a week. We had 3 fry stations going on various gas grills and camp stoves. The kids of all ages enjoyed it. I had a white RV at my back, the sun and cookstove in front and just didn't drink enough water. Suddenly I almost fell over and was helped to a chair in the shade. The dehydration and overheating were all the stress needed. I had a sizable demyelination suddenly. I had back the worse pain I have had in 9 years, terrible dizziness, brain fog and the intensely painful tight muscles from screwed up nerves. The pain had been building slowly since July. My mucous had been getting thicker and jellied for a few months. I had terrible paradoxical folate deficiency despite plenty of folate (methyl trap from lack of "active" mb12?). The 10 hour drive there at the beginnig of August was a breeze. The drive home in mid september took two gruesome days. The sleep disorder was back. My body had plenty of energy but I couldn't stay awake. My cell reproduction was impaired. And everything else was neurological.

    When I got back home to my new order of vitamins I started on 30mg daily of ENZY as 6 times 5mgs for 2 hours+ each batch. I had CNS mb12 startup all over again for the third time. I started Anabol dibencozide with boron. I had CNS adb12 startup for the third time. The first time was when I started them 9 years ago. The second time was after the glutathione trials after I was able to increase the methylfolate enough to overcome the induced defciency. This was the third mb12 and adb12 startup experience for the CNS only, not the body. The mucous started turning around in a week. The mood and personality changes went into the volitile recovery mode. The nerves started tingling intensely and shooting pains and all the rest as they started to recover feeling again. I'm 6 weeks into the recovery and there is no doubt at all that the nerves are recovering again. Basically all the FMS CNS symptoms came back with a vengence. They also happen to be the Subacute Combined degneration symptoms which never full healed. Only the mucous changed in the body, all the rest was caused by CNS changes. I also had bouts of vomitting with a cough or sneeze causing acute nausea, again a famliliar neurological problem form 9.5 years before.

    None of the 3 brands I tried of dibencozide made any difference while I was taking the Jarrow. As soon as I elliminated all the b12 except 30mg of ENZY a day, having 100% 5 star mb12 at a high enough saturation to penetrate the CSF/CNS I had a startup experience with the adb12. Somehow, the absorbtion or transport or something went wrong with the adb12 when not getting enough 5 star mb12. That appears to demonstrate an aspect of the Deadlock Quartet, that adb12 is blocked from effectiveness by lack of enough 5 star mb12.

    The onset was just as sudden as in 1987 and included the disabling dizzyness, intense pain, muscle spasms and pain and vomitting, same as 1987. The big difference was no fatigue. Also I was able to start reversing it in weeks instead of nearly 17 years. If all goes as last time I should be largely recovered neurologically in another 8 months. The dizzyness was gone in days of 10mg daily of ENZY and elliminating the Jarrow. The pain is now about 20% of what it was. The muscle spasms are fading and responding to massage. The vomitting hasn't happened in a week and I'm slowly regaining feeling in my feet. The mood and personality changes are volitile and hopefully will settle to normal over the next months. It makes me very irritable (Mr Hyde) and depressed and apathetic.

    So, despite taking plenty of mb12, it wasn't good mb12 except for a little. So the percentage of 5 star makes a difference. This is the third time and way that has been confirmed to me. Lack of adequate 5 star mb12 creates a block that prevents utilization of adb12 and methylfolate. This looks like a good demonstration of the Deadlock Quartet.

    Don't get careless as I did. Pay attention to changes in symptoms. Don't let them sneak up on you. This is very similar to what somebody else had happen when they discontinued the adb12 becasue it "wasn't needed" any more. After some months a subset of symptoms came back including sleep disorders.

    Good health to you all.
    Jarod likes this.
  2. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

    Messages:
    441
    Likes:
    210
    Edegem, Belgium
    Hello Fred

    Thanks for sharing and hope you recover well this time. Crashing can be horrible for your state of mind after all these years.

    Although I understand the methylation and folate cycle in general and I do pay attention to my symptoms, I don't understand what's happening most of the time. You're very good at writing and I'm a visual thinker. My problem is I don't see what you're talking about. My problem, not yours I understand.

    So here's my crash:

    At first I started a few weeks with the antioxidants (vit E, fishoil, etc)
    Adding the crumbs of methylB12 were a rollercoaster . I was kind of paralised, then trembled like parkinson, later on suicidal thoughts but I made it to 2,5 mg a few times a week. For the first time since long I even had energy.
    Adb12 is impossible, carnitine fumarate as well, they make me psychotic and I've not been on AD or such in my life.
    After 2 months my liver and stomach (change of pH) started to hurt so much I had to stop.
    The pain in my joints was nearly gone +++ but now coming back.

    I'm afraid to start again. No offense, one thing is missing in your protocol: a broomstick to fly away once in while.

    Every day I look in the mirror and say to myself: "It's only chemistry, it's a matter of finding the right amounts."
    Not one single doctor can help me with the methylation protocol, they don't understand.

    Best

    Marlene
  3. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    303
    Likes:
    83
    California
    What an ordeal, Fred! Sorry you had to go through that. The message not to get careless is important, although sometimes its like being in a dream, and you don't realize you have changed until the alarms are going off. For me it can happen with both B-12 and Synthroid, where I can gradually become depressed and anti-social and apathetic and don't realize it, or realize something is wrong, but don't have the mental strength to do anything, locked in depression.

    The real culprit here, of course, is Jarrow. It's incredibly irresponsible for any company supplying a nutrient that affects the nervous system to make a change behind the scenes and just let the buyer beware. That's why I've tried to post around the internet warning people. This is what happens when human health takes a back seat to corporate profits, and why people need to make an effort to warn others about a company willing to pull the rug out from its clients without notice or even a reply to people like myself who have contacted them multiple times.

    Jarrow should come clean and explain what the change was and what they will do differently in the future. But of course the only way to impact a company that behaves this way is to move on to a better company.

    Thanks for the post.
  4. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    303
    Likes:
    83
    California
    Fredd, just wondering if you've noticed if people with CFS tend to have a different set of start-up reactions or more intense. I would imagine it would be harder to have the difficulty of CFS issues to start with and then be trying to cope with start-up, and perhaps unpredictable interactions that those without CFS might not have.

    Marlene, yes, doctors not understanding is an understatement. The B-12 forums were life saving for me while the doctors at Kaiser were basically ordering me to stop "taking so much". Thank god for a few people online who have lived it and done the research. A number of good people on our original B-12 forum literally coached me through the start-up symptoms, "just hang in there" and such. It was extremely important for me to have that type of support. Many nights I was up for hours typing away on the forum, getting responses, and that got me through it. To see others as mortified as I was at their predicament was also helpful -- others went through it too.

    And also Fredd's very rational structure and experiences to support each decision were critical to me because I operate more on science and reason than faith, even as faith was necessary to get through it.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    883
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Marlene,

    Adb12 is impossible, carnitine fumarate as well, they make me psychotic
    then trembled like parkinson

    This is the connection I've just been figuring out this summer. The Deadlock Quartet, adb12, mb12, methylfolate and l-carnitine. All of these are essential to healing.

    Let's look at the family tree of these illenesses. Linked together by studies showing low cerebral spinal fluid levels of cobalamin are FMS, CFS, MS, ALS, Parkinson's and Supra Nuclear Palsy. MS has high hcy indicating low mb12 at least and/or mfolate and/or p5p. ALS has elevated Hcy AND MMA. Parkinson's has elevated MMA indicating low adb12 and/or carnitine. Parkinson's is sometimes treated with 3,000mg infusion of carnitine. (yikes). Parkinson's is associated with damage to the limbic system. Parkinsons is associated with damage from nonfunctioning mitochondria. Non funtioning mitochondria produce MMA when short of the adb12 and/or carnitine needed for making ATP. ATP is needed to make dopamine in the brain. The limbic system is assicoated with anxiety, fear, panic, anger, rage, OCD (probably), and all sorts of nesting and reproductive behaviors. B12 deficiency causes "megaloblastic madness" so called becasue it is often accompanied by large MCV. Megaloblastic madness is "the most florrid psychosis known to mankind".

    So when the damaged linbic neurons are started up again with mb12, adb12 and carnitine they are very irritated. It is unknown if they can be healed once this damage has happened. However, if they can be healed like other areas of damage such as I have but NOT in the limbic system, then it takes being activated for them to be repaired. You see the conundrum.

    I believe that microtitration can do the trick. There is NO PROOF until somebody manages to do so. I'm much more confident on MS as that is almost identical with subacute combined degeneration and both tend to have euhoria as the startup mood so it is easy to tolerate, unlike limbic startup.

    For starters, carnitine has to be left on the side lines. A micro titration of adb12 perhaps starting with 10 mcg or so can slowly be built up. Usually a person has a hyper response to either adb12 or l-carnitine. L-carnitine is more controlable as it clear in 36 hours or so. Hypothetically the reason a person never reaches the end of startup in mb12 is that they appear to have some partial conversion to adb12 that is never sufficient so it never gets complete. When a person can take 1-2 mg of adb12 per week for a while they will have a saturated system before too long. Then one can start with liquid carnitine at under 100mcg per day. That is 1 drop of the liquid (of the right brand) diluted by 98 drops of water and 1 drop of the diluted amount taken 3 times per day. It must be prepared fresh each day. The trick is to limit the quantity of neurons that can startup at any given time and hopefully stop further damage and allow healing which appears to take about 9 months for any group of neurons after they are activated.

    You see the long chain of conjectures and hyothesis. The pragmatic results appear to directly back up these conjectures. I would be inclined to hypothecize that you have anxiety as a symptom, elements of the "Parkinson's personality" for much of your life, and long period side effect probblems with benzos if you have taken substantial doses for years.

    Without the methylfolate, I would hypothecize all manner of stomach and intestional pain and problems.

    So now, how close is my hypothesis? What would you correct in the things I hypothecized?

    How desparate are you? I'm a systems analyst, not a doctor. I'm basically a consultant of last resort.

    On the other hand I don't believe there to be any other hypothesis out there that might work for you. Methylation is only the tiniest part of your problem. You are possibly, in MY OPINION ONLY, much of the way to Parkinson's. That doesn't matter as a diagnosis of Parkinson's doesn't predict sucessful treatment, only some symptomatic relief for the long slide to death The question is, is the outcome inevitable? Can further damage be prevented? Can existing damage be reversed?


    I think a slow microtitration of mb12, adb12 and methylfolate is the place to start. Healing starts up in phases. The large general startups can happen at total levels of mb12/adb12 of about 100mcg daily absorbed and 200mcg of methylfoalte, then potassium and methylfolate need titrating to stable healing. If it doesn't start by twice the intial dose, then start the micro titration of carnitine becasue that lack can deadlock everything. Body healing may be limited until carnitine is far more tolerated. Bur first, general healing has to get started or neurological healing doesn't have a chance..

    You are playing "You Bet Your Life", for real. The stakes couldn't be higher. You pays your money and takes your chances as they say. Your choices are to the best of my knowledge are "Nobody knows" or "Nobody knows but there is this hypothesis...". As far as my experience goes my internist said " I have never seen somebody come back from so close to the edge before". A few years ago I was falling and within weeks to months of a wheelchair. Today I can repair the roof and hike for miles and stand on one foot. I would expect that if you can stop the damage that healing, to the extent that is possible, could easily take 5 years. Methylation has to get turned on for healing to happen. The other deadlock factors are essential for general and neurological healing. That is the theory that I can offer.

    The reason you are here is that nobody has any idea until you get much worse. Then you will get a diagnosis with no known treatment. I am sorry to have to tell you such things.
  6. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    303
    Likes:
    83
    California
    Without the methylfolate, I would hypothecize all manner of stomach and intestional pain and problems.

    When I got tested originally for B-12 my folate levels were very high. Somewhere I read that the body may compensate somehow for B-12 with folate. I still need to look into methylfolate more, and I continue to have various stomach issues.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    883
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Victronix,

    I suspect all that Jarrow did was buy a different batch of mb12 crystal when they ran out that they had no way of knowing was different from what they had. There is a different form of mb12 from each of the varieties of bacteria used to brew it, like beer or soy sauce. Only by having worked through the whole list of why b12 therapies don't work did I get it down to the crystal itself. Everybody else tells them mb12 is mb12. You and I and a few other know that is not correct.

    I would be pleased to consult with them for picking mb12 and adb12 if they could be convinced of the need.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    883
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Victronix,

    The test for folate is no better than a cobalamin level test. It doesn't tell you the right things. Only a trial can tell. With paradoxical foalte deficiency your folate can be "terribly high" and work not at all.
  9. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    303
    Likes:
    83
    California
    Thanks, I will look into that more, I know there's info on here.
  10. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    303
    Likes:
    83
    California
    That could be right about Jarrow, but they were surprisingly uninterested and unresponsive about that question when others I'd asked in the past were different. It's interesting to go for that many years doing so well and then suddenly change. For me the change also coincided with the use of plastic bottles -- suddenly every single store only had those, and the glass was gone -- which is why I at first thought it was the plastic at fault, and also believed that there was a money-saving issue going on.
  11. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    303
    Likes:
    83
    California
  12. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

    Messages:
    441
    Likes:
    210
    Edegem, Belgium
    hello fred

    Many thanks for your elaborate reply. It did clear up some clouds indeed. Some questions remain like:
    1) Could my start up problems be linked to:
    http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/
    2) What kind of doctor/specialist would be the most indicated to "educate" about methylation

    I also googled some extra words of yours and discovered that:
    - people with pernicious anemia feel and look much better the day after an B12 injection
    - one case mentioned the use of liver extract
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2098604/?page=4
    case 5


    Best

    Marlène
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    883
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Marlene,

    2) What kind of doctor/specialist would be the most indicated to "educate" about methylation

    Do you mean for you to educate or for you to be educated by? In any case, I know of none. I have had no sucesses in 30 years of attempting to do so.

    I also googled some extra words of yours and discovered that:
    - people with pernicious anemia feel and look much better the day after an B12 injection
    - one case mentioned the use of liver extract
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2098604/?page=4
    case 5
    interesting period piece. Going back and reinterpreting in light of further knowledge can be very interesting.

    Many thanks for your elaborate reply. It did clear up some clouds indeed. Some questions remain like:
    1) Could my start up problems be linked to:
    http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/

    The answers given on the site are about 99% wrong. The correct answer is to check the symptoms on the list below and take potassium for hypokalemia symptoms and relieve within hours or for the donut-hole paradoxical folate insufficiency increase methylrolate. These are my opinion from person experineca duplicated my a multitude of persons.

    TRANSLATION OF POPULAR DESCRIPTIVE TERMS TO PRACTICAL CORRECTIONS

    During “methylation” treatments for FMS, CFS, ME, MS. Cures or long term remissions can occur if the clues are understood and followed. Also suggestive of possible ways to detect impending MS, ALS and Parkinson’s 10-20 years before diagnosis and hopefully prevent.

    There are several popular nutritional treatments and variations for FMS, ME, CFIDS, CFS and several other syndrome names. There is at least one study being conducted for use in MS of exactly the same nutrients because people are having success on them. Many of the same nutritional supplements may be taken in the various programs and by people in general just trying to be healthy.



    Under the banner of “partial methylation block” theory there are a number of programs that center on several forms of cobalamin and of folate with additional vitamins, minerals and supplements. The number and completeness of those other items determine if it is the “full methylation protocol” or “simplified methylation protocol” (SMP). Under the banner of “Functional Deficiency Diseases” which include “active b12 deficiencies (4 deficiencies)” and “induced or paradoxical folate deficiency” there is the “Active b12 and folate protocol” (ABP).



    Whatever names these diseases are called they deal with a universe of symptoms that include up to 400 symptoms and signs, depending upon granularity (ie “peripheral neuropathy” encompasses dozens of possible symptoms and signs). They are in several main categories. They might be grouped as endothelial, epithelial, immune, neurological, blood, and other tissues. Or they might be classified as Skin, GI, lung, heart, veins, arteries, neurological –brain, neurological – cord, neurological - peripheral, neurological – other, neuro-psyc, blood, mood, personality etc.





    WHEN TREATED

    All of these are flags indicating healing is occurring. Minimizing nervous system response reduces or stops healing, especially of the nervous system. Minimizing ATP response prevents normalization of biochemistry.

    1 - Low potassium, almost everybody when healing starts. – often called “detox”

    2 - Low folate symptoms even with small doses of Metafolin – often called “detox”

    3 - Nervous system activation, everything is perceived as more intense – often called “detox”

    4 – ATP activation, everything is more energetic and intense – often called “detox”



    Whatever distinctions are made, a key characteristic is that symptoms, once well developed, of these syndromes will include multiple tissue types, multiple systems. To the casual observer they appear to be not connected. After all what do blood abnormalities, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, daily nausea and vomiting, severe fatigue, muscle atrophy, asthma, hypersensitive nervous system responses, muscle pains, MCS, mood and personality changes, widespread body pain, peripheral neuropathy, poly neuropathies, burning bladder, poor immune response, FMS, CFS, autoimmune response, raspy voice, unable to focus eyes, faded vision, multi sensory hallucinations and many others have in common? They all share a common set of nutritional deficiency causes. Some will argue that these are not “absolute deficiencies” but rather “functional deficiencies”. For treatment purposes that doesn’t matter unless one is trying to restrict access to treatment (insurance won’t cover)



    The more severely affected a person is the harder hitting the vitamins are when started. There are several initial responses that may occur. In the popular terminology most of them are lumped together under the term “DETOX” reaction or response. These responses may start in minutes to days depending up many circumstances.



    The supplements being considered here are methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, cyanocobalamin, folic acid, folinic acid, Metafolin-methylfolate, SAM-e, L-carnitine, glutathione, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), Cerefolin-NAC, Whey, Metanx, Deplin.

    More rarely Vitamins D – A - C, magnesium, zinc, p5p



    Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey are all glutathione or glutathione precursors. The NAC typically overpowers the Cerefolin completely.

    Metafolin, methylfolate, Deplin are all methylfolate

    Metanx is Metafolin, methylb12 and P5P

    B12 forms, in order of effectiveness and likelihood of causing the responses listed here are methylcbl, adenosylcbl, hydroxycbl, cyanocbl



    Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called “detox” by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term. Typically they are working on a “toxin” theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the “translations” are made it is clear that actual “detox” if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore. If it is “detox” in an actual sense, then it is in what is left after these other things are accounted for and/or corrected, perhaps 5-10% of the total initial number. Also, co-morbidities often show up in this way..



    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..

    IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.



    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation



    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.



    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.



    Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12. If glutathione (precursors) are the cause then larger doses of Metafolin, 7.5-15mg,or maybe more are needed. Different tissues are affected at different levels of methylfolate, it comes or goes in stages. Very strong dose proportionate characteristics are present. Serum folate levels may be high or even very high despite Metafolin responsive deficiency/insufficiency symptoms.

    Group 1 symptoms respond readily to potassium. The symptoms and response to potassium may occur at a serum level of 4.3 or less.





    IF taking Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey, all glutathione or glutathione precursors

    AND often sudden onset of several group 3 symptoms (“Detox”) maybe in a sequence, ie pain and inflammation the first day, cheilitis occurs on day 2-3 and IBS on day 5-6, plus any group 2 symptoms. Symptoms increase for weeks or months and can vary from mild to extreme.

    THEN Induced Paradoxical Folate Deficiency onset. B12 deficiencies follow in a week for methylb12 deficiency symptoms and several weeks for adenosylb12 deficiency symptoms. None of the other supplements can overcome the effects of glutathione or NAC.

    ELSE - all other conditions

    IF injecting b12

    AND itchy bumps and acne type lesions appear mostly on scalp and face but not exclusive

    THEN B12 was hydroxycbl OR photolytically deteriorated methylcbl OR cyanocbl, Lesions can be reversed in days with methylcbl injections not exposed to light at all.



    IF starting or adding methylb12, adenposylb12 or hydroxycbl, AND OR Metafolin (perhaps 80%)

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden widespread healing onset. This usually occurs as soon as methylation therapy starts widespread healing process by allowing DNA replications with methylb12 and methylfolate.



    IF adding adenosylcobalamin AND OR L-carnitine fumarate AND OR SAM-e to program (perhaps 50%)

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and /or muscle growth. This usually occurs when the person has experienced muscle shrinkage perhaps from decades of inactivity, as soon as these supplements step up mitochondria functioning.



    IF adding or increasing any of Vitamins D, A, E, or C, magnesium, zinc (perhaps 10%)

    AND on the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folic acid

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folic acid is the most oxidized form of folate that anybody can use. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folinic acid

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is a less oxidized form of folate than folic acid.. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF an increase in dietary vegetable folate, “green drinks”, a garden feast

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folic acid AND OR starting or increasing folinic acid AND OR an increase in dietary vegetable folate

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency AND this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing



    IF starting or Methylfolate – Metafolin starting low and titrating

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    AND OR usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency, a “donut hole” deficiency. The effects of folate deficiency/insufficiency comes in layers. Several tissue groups can be healing at the same time as other tissue groups are deteriorating. IBS and angular cheilitis can be worsening at the same time as muscles are healing or growing. There is a dose of Metafolin that can start more tissue formation than the same dose can sustain causing a Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency at the same time. In some people at least as they increase Metafolin the need for potassium increases approximately proportionately. The donut hole can be closed with total daily doses of Metafolin of about 15mg for many people.





    TWENTY FIRST CENTURY MYSTERY SYNDROME



    In the early 1940s a Nobel prize was awarded for folic acid. As we know now, folic acid is totally ineffective for 20% of the population due to genetic polymorphisms. Another 30% have very limited effectiveness from folic acid with only partial conversion to methylfolate. Even the 50% with the best conversion has limited amounts converted, an amount insufficient to maintain health for many people. Then, even worse, for some percentage of these people the inactive unconverted folic acid actually blocks methylfolate taken as a supplement from being effective. Again, illumination of this process is aided by the ready availability of Metafolin. So what do you call these people with a folate deficiency because they can’t utilize folic acid or in some cases, folinic acid, the vegetable folate form? Because it is genetic these folks are ill for a lifetime with this paradoxical folate deficiency. At some point they can and do get ill. You say “Paradoxical folate deficiency? What’s that, you never heard of it? Excuse me, you might know it better under the more familiar names of FMS or CFS or maybe MS. Since “folate deficiency” is a known item that has been dealt with by folic acid how can that be? Once again it is, mystery disease time, because the lack of 100% effectiveness of folic acid had been forgotten.



    Since the middle of the last century there has been an explosion of neurological and other disorders including fibromyalgia syndrome, Chronic fatigue syndrome, M.E., Parkinson’s disease, MS, ALS, Alzheimer’s, Autism, SupraNuclearPalsy. The mystery syndrome includes many other potentially named diseases and syndromes. What ties these together? Results of research studies. The specific studies were those that compared cerebral spinal fluid cobalamin levels to blood serum cobalamin levels. Some of them also measured and compared CSF MMA and Hcy to serum HCy and uMMA. In 1948 the Nobel Prize was awarded for a lab mistake, the mis-identification of cyanocobalamin as “B12” instead of the real B12s, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.



    For all of the named conditions low CSF cobalamin level was found to be independent of blood serum cobalamin level. Further, for those measuring it, CSF HCY was independent of blood serum HCY and CSF MMA was independent from urine MMA.



    Research on cyanocobalamin and hydroxycobalamin since the 1950s have given the impression that “b12 deficiency” is one thing. Since the late 90s the ready availability of methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin have allowed anybody interested to demonstrate and experience the differences between cyanocbl/hydroxycbl and the two active b12s, methylb12 and adenosylb12. As the official “b12” is cyanocbl the deficiencies are defined in terms of cyanocbl. On an internationally based list of b12 deficiency symptoms expanded for maximum detail added to by what methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin directly affect in humans, the problem becomes readily apparent; cyanocbl has no effectiveness in 1/3 of subjects in just about every study ever done considering only symptoms known to be affected by cyanocbl. Further 2/3 of the total symptoms affected by the two active cobalamins are completely unaffected by cyanocbl and hydroxycbl. Then somehow, physicians and researchers have forgotten about all these symptoms unaffected by cyanocbl/hydroxcbl. They have become “mystery syndromes”.



    A careful observation of the effectiveness of adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin makes it very clear, in combination with the CSF cobalamin level studies that there are 4 distinct b12 deficiency syndromes; CNS-adenosylcobalamin, CNS-methylcobalamin, body-adenosylcobalamin and body-methylcobalamin. In addition there are 4 forms of methylfolate deficiency; folic acid blocked methylfolate paradoxical folate deficiency, folinic acid blocked methylfolate paradoxical folate deficiency (vegetable food source folate included), Methylfolate triggered symptomatic methylfolate partial insufficiency and glutathione/NAC triggered paradoxical folate deficiency.



    These syndromes, FMS and CFS, respond promptly to methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin and methylfolate. For those with anxiety the methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin must be titrated very slowly starting at perhaps 50mcg of sublingual b12 (literally a crumb) of each form on alternating days working up very slowly, below “alarm” level, until full equilibrium is established when no further increase in dose makes a difference. For those without anxiety a 1000mcg sublingual dose is an effective starting point. With the two 5 star effective brands, Jarrow Formulas and Enzymatic Therapy methylcobalamin, maintaining the tablet under the upper lip for 45-120 minutes causes absorption, tested in comparison with injections, in the 15-25% range typically (10-33% extremes). Source Naturals Dibencozide (adenosylcobalamin) 10mg has no folic acid in it and is acceptable in both absorption and effectiveness. About 80% of people starting these active b12 forms with methylfolate will demonstrate the start of healing with epithelial tissue healing and dropping/low potassium symptoms within about 3-4 days. Additional potassium may be needed from 400mg to 2000mg or more daily. I take 1200mg of potassium from potassium chloride as 600mg with each meal and 300-400mg as potassium gluconate tablets twice a day. If a person wakes to middle of the night spasms 500mg of potassium from potassium gluconate with a large glass of water will relieve them within 30 minutes generally. Lasix and other diuretics need to be taken into consideration. Paradoxical folate deficiency can alternate with low potassium. Edema is sometimes related to paradoxical folate deficiency and as the water is excreted the potassium may drop rapidly.



    glutathione and NAC triggered paradoxical folate deficiency

    Glutathione and NAC, both cause the same “detox” reaction with the group 3 symptoms. Hypothetically the glutathione combines with the methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin forming glutathionylcobalamin which then shows up in the urine in profusion in the next few hours. Without the active b12s in the cells the methylfolate is flushed from the cells (“methyl trap”) causing rapid onset of folate deficiency symptoms regardless of serum folate levels or dose of Metafolin. People who claim relief of symptoms from glutathione are reporting an effect. Those people who have anxiety as a symptom respond to both neurological methylcobalamin and methylfolate response and to ATP startup response with adenosylcobalamin as “unbearable” and greatly increasing their anxiety. The glutathione almost immediately relieves and stops methylcobalamin and methylfolate effects and rapidly decreasing adenosylcobalamin ATP effect. Those who have had pronounced healing from methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin and methylfolate undergo immediate progressive return of deficiency symptoms, and large body wide increases in pain and inflammation. In six weeks continued usage of the glutathione can cause neurological damage with a noticeable increase in Sub-acute Combined Degeneration damage. Glutathione/NAC “relieves” neurological pain and discomfort by damaging the nerves to the point of numbness by combining with and removing essentially all active circulating mb12 and adb12 from the body starting in minutes..



    Strategy for overcoming paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency from vegetable food source folate

    A number of people have found the following method effective, with variations, at overcoming life-long paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency from vegetable food source folate.

    Wakeup – 2400mcg Metafolin on empty stomach

    First meal – 4000mcg Metafolin with meal

    Mid-afternoon – 2400mcg Metafolin on empty stomach

    Dinner – 4000mcg Metafolin with meal

    Bedtime – 2400mcg Metafolin on empty stomach

    And NO FOLIC ACID, NO FOLINIC ACID and modest high folate vegetable consumption. Vegetarians will have a problem. So the b-complex must be without any form of folate except methylfolate or Metafolin. Further, no glutathione, no NAC, no whey

  14. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes:
    514
    Seattle
    Hi Fred,

    Welcome back...glad to see you back here...was getting kind of worried, especially after Rich's sudden death.

    Methinks though doest exaggerate a bit. :)

    At the link posted, he basically describes some of the same symptoms you do below, and suggests, as you do, that for some people, they need to start out with really low doses. I can understand your point about no mention of low potassium however. That definitely should be mentioned...

    Of course some of those symptoms can be caused by other mineral/electrolyte imbalances as well, right?

    So glad to see you mention this, as it definitely has occurred in many patients, and I think you were a little reluctant to acknowledge it in the past. Note that "severe anxiety" is one of the symptoms that Dr. Lynch also notes as a 'side effect' of too much methylfolate.

    Again, good to see you back on the boards.

    Dan
    Asklipia and merylg like this.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    883
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Dan,

    "Methinks though doest exaggerate a bit."

    I should have specified the answers on that page to that specific questuin. B2? Thiamin? Really?? Potassium is needed or it could get dangerous or at least exceedling unpleasant for months possibly. Then the increased need for l-methyfolate can go on for quite a while. The "donut hole" type appears to happen when a small dose, like 100 or 200 or 400 mcg and it starts a whole lot more hea;ling in process than it can maintain. Anyway, that is how it appearas to be happeing. Then increasing the dose every day or three as needed until the responsive symptoms go away.

    Neither of the two things that are happening as specified by the symptoms are given a correct answer. That sounds like a 100% fail. As b2 will sometimes be a final needed thing to turn on healing but won't do it alone usually and it doesn't usually have both those set of symtpoms and I haven't got that pinned down yet.

    So glad to see you mention this, as it definitely has occurred in many patients, and I think you were a little reluctant to acknowledge it in the past. Note that "severe anxiety" is one of the symptoms that Dr. Lynch also notes as a 'side effect' of too much methylfolate.

    Dr Lynch is a Naturopathic Physician. Let it suffice it to be said that confers no special knowlege about these matters. For that matter I have never gotten any correct answers on any of this from any kind or training of physician. His answers we have examined here are not effective and are totally different from my answers which do work a reasonable percentage but are difficult to really do, especially because of the characteristics of this family of diseases, brainfog and other such problems. Nothing is perfected. In this there is no authority, no place with almost certainly correct answers. Everything is at best a work in progress subject to reinterpretation over and over.


    I have traced down a specifric anxiety pattern that I have described elsewhere. The key facor that idnetifies this is the extreme reaction to occasionally adb12 usually, and especilly l-carnitine to an extreme response often following the carnitine on a 36 to 48 hour serum roller coaster fron anxiety at insane levels, fear, panic, anger, rage, homicidal rage and depression as carnitine finally hits the basement again. This response, by the neuropsych effects is hitting the limbic system. Adb12 and L-carnitine producing ATP in the mitochondria of the neurons of the limbic system is necessary for dopamine to be produced. For this set of people there are often a speccific set of long term side effects often called "tolerance withdrawal" which comes about as the benzos, espcially klonopin, depresses the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors causing Parkinson's type symptoms and limbic symptoms. So linking it to "too much methylfolate" is quite wrong. Adb12 and l-carnitine mean everything in this and Methylfolate only very little as an essential coffactor. Now I could be wrong. But ask these folks how they feel about taking an ordinary 500mg dose of l-carntine of their most effective variety sits with them. How about you? You are the person who put me on to this. Now this person with these characterisitcs are going to be low csf serum cobalamin inferred to be adb12 becasue of the MMA, in the CSF according to research. The researchers think that the damage from not having functional mitochondria at required levels in the brain causes damage to the brain that accumulates and becomes Parkinson's disease. Parkinson's doisease is sometimes trearted with a 3 gram infusion of l-carnitine to try to get the mitochondria working and becasue they are mesaurably low. Parkinson's disease causes limbic damage which casues limbic symptoms.

    Now so far nobody can cure Parkinson's. I suppose the question needs to be asked such as "When does it cease being a correctable deficiency that can heal to some degree and perhaps at least arrest further damage or is a point reached that a person should accept the inevitable and at least start looking for doctors with some idea of what to do with pre-parkinsons or at least what looks like pre-parkinsons. Who knows? Are we talking about an ongoing deficiency that we can correct, very very carefully as an experiment to see if the damage in the limbic system can heal as much as the damage I have in other areas. You would like the strong mb12/adb12/l-caritine response from the OTHER CNS b12 deficiency, mb12 that leads towards the Subacute-combined degeneration and MS side of things. These supplements tend to be really feel good stimulating and even euphoric feeling while the the mood and personality areas affected by MB12 and folate lack are recovering. Lot's of neurological pain can lift and when it does my mood goes from wanting to be done with it to happy when the pain is releived.

    If a person decides they want to try to heal they can try each of the hypothesis. In my experience on the Subacute combined degeneration side of things neurological CNS healing required enough mb12, ad12 for healing startup, enough folate so that healing startup has occurred. The carnitine should not be started, no matter how little until after all the titrations of potassium and Metafolin are balanced out and working or no startup at all since it is one of the Deadlock Quartet.


    I posted to this issue before I got clobberred. Hypersensitivity identified I think it was called. I have learned a LOT since then how all these things tie together.
  16. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes:
    514
    Seattle
    Don't get me wrong Fred, I'm not saying Dr. Lynch is the Master of the Methylation Universe, but just that he seems to have been focusing on it, and studying it a lot more than the average naturopath -- and has many patients and case histories (and references) to back up his approach and reasoning just like you do. The only thing is that you and he don't agree on a variety of issues.

    I agree that his recommendation of only 125mgs of potassium is ridiculously low, may even be dangerously low if one isn't eating a high potassium diet.

    Regarding b2 -- that was brought up a lot by Christine Huebner this past spring. Her contention was that we were depleting it by taking too much mb12/folates, etc.. It helped some of us for awhile, but then most of us had to stop because it created other deficiencies -- most likely mb12 and folate. But, angular chelitis, for example, is one of the main symptoms of b2 deficiency...so isn't it possible that more might help if one is taking super high doses of the b12s and folate?

    On another topic, what precisely is it that Jarrow did to change their MB12? I was never able to use their lozenges for very long due to the citric acid, so I switched to shots for awhile, then hydroxyb12 (which I know isn't what you recommend) and the Anabol adb12. I'd like to find a sublingual mb12 again, so will check out the ENZY brand -- is that the name of it?

    Have you tried the Solgar 5,000mcg mb12? Looks like it doesn't have any acids that have bothered some of us...

    Again, good to see you back. :)
  17. arx

    arx Senior Member

    Messages:
    525
    Likes:
    134
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    883
    Salt Lake City
    ,

    I am. I am trying to get 3-4 months ahead because last time it got this kind of publicity it was out of stock nationwide of several months which is why I did the N=5 mb12 10 brand study, desperation because I was sliding rapidly back into the pit. I wish it came in 10mg x 100 bottles.
  19. Idie

    Idie

    Messages:
    48
    Likes:
    20
    As it relates to l-carnitine. As I look back on it. l-carnitine was the first item I added after I started on the MB12 and Folate. Within one hour of taking it I experienced a naked-eye event. I felt terrible and my family considered taking me to the emergency room. I was disoriented, dizzy, weak beyond belief. It took about 4 hours before it abated. The next day I was weak and shaky all day. I was afraid to try l-carnitine again but when I finally got the courage I emptied half of the capsule and prepared to ride it out. I did ok though. At the time I chalked it up to finding the "showstopper" supplement. Now I wonder if it wasn't what Fredd is talking about. I can still only take l-carnitine for about 3 days and then I have to back off because it makes me feel bad. This is like a trying to figure out a gordian knot.I really appreciate Fredd helping to explain this. By the way, I take Enzymatic MB 12 along with my injections. I'm 2 years into the shots and I still am not feeling really good BUT lots of things have improved so I'm grateful for that.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    883
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Dan,

    I haven't ordered the Solgar yet but will certainly test them, AOR, and Medicine Shoppe house brand on my upcoming round of tests. Anybody with good comparative sensitivity to mb12 is welcome to join me on this.

    Because of the Anabol dibenecoplex adb12 with BORON, and a brand new paper ,that ties BORON into the adb12 processing I am suggesting that it may be another possibly critical cofactor.

    Hypotheses in the Life Sciences Volume 2 Issue 2 pp 31-54
    The Very Large Gorilla Sitting in the Room? Adenosylcobalamin is the Missing Link: its Radical and Tetrahydrobiopterin are the Principal in vivo Catalysts for Mammalian Nitric Oxide Synthases.

    Carmen Wheatley
    Orthomolecular Oncology, (registered charity no. 1078066), 4 Richmond Road, Oxford, OX1 2JJ, and St Catherine’s College, Oxford, OX1 3UJ, UK.

    Abstract
    Mammalian nitric oxide synthases (NOS) are a source of the universal second messenger, and pivotal biochemical molecule, nitric oxide (.NO). NOS are assumed to function catalytically in a haem-centred manner, by analogy with cytochrome P450. Yet, they differ significantly. Cobalamin, vitamin B12, is believed to function almost solely as an .NO scavenger and, latterly, as a direct, physiological inhibitor of the NOS. Yet, in pathology, associated to cobalamin deficiency, functional or otherwise, NOS over-produce superoxide, peroxynitrite (ONOO-), and other reactive nitrite species, rather than .NO (Figure 7). This paper offers a radical, new solution to the gaps and inconsistencies in the current understanding of the mechanism of haem-centred NOS catalysis, which also challenges the other existing paradigm of cobalamin as just an .NO mop. Examination of a wide diversity of NOS and cobalamin-dependent enzyme structure-function studies, as well as data from the .NO/cobalamin chemical, biochemical, immunological, genetic, and clinical literature, offers indications that cobalamin, specifically, in one of its active forms, adenosylcobalamin (AdoCbl), may have a third, eukaryotic coenzyme function as the principal cofactor of well-regulated NOS catalysis in vivo. The AdoCbl-centred NOS reaction is described in detail (Figure 5), and some existing evidence that, in vitro, without AdoCbl, NOS turnover activity is significantly slower than in in vivo AdoCbl-rich environments, is presented. AdoCbl, in conjunction with tetrahydrobiopterin, couples NOS oxygen binding/activation to L-arginine hydroxylation and .NO synthesis much more effectively than does haem, overcoming NOS spatial and redox problems, leading to productive catalysis, decreased radical formation/escape, with a consequent increased ratio of .NO to ONOO-, and prevention of pathology (Figures 5 & 7). In vivo, haem-centred NOS catalysis may, in fact, be the back-up NOS reaction, and it‟s predominance in the absence of AdoCbl, with a consequent lowering of the .NO/ONOO- ratio, is the real source of supposedly .NO derived pathology.

    You have to read the paper to find the Boron reference. Its in there somewhere in 25 pages. I found it the first time through but not again. This is her 4th paper on cobalamins and inflammation, the first three were the "Scarlet Pimpernel" papers. Again, this is a speculative paper advancing the edge of scientific understanding.


    As regards Dr Lynch, I'm glad he has learned what he has. However, to give a 1% answer to instead of the 90% or whatever answer, and missing the potassium by more than an order of magnitude could actually cause severe injury or death. Such is the hazard of giving answers. His answers don't work. Titrating potassium and Metafolin corrects almost every "side effect" symptom he brings up in a day or two. While this is a new answer, it has worked very well for a lot of people for whom nothing else worked. A few people do get additional help from b2. That is the reason for 2x b-complex, to cover those other bases. Actually the severe lack of almost any vitamin, mineral or other things will cause all sorts of symptoms. Can you tell the mushy deterioating gums and other tissues from the similar symptoms of b12/folate deficiency, severe vit A deficiency etc. All vitamins are essential, by definition. What we are looking for are the mostly like things to be the most limiting factors, get healing moving and then add each additional thing needed to correct deficiencies that continue past the "normal" level. That is fine tunig as I have called it. Find all the 1% probability after seeing what is left after doing the 99% deficiencies.

    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page