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Landmark et al: CFS and experience with the Lightning Process

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by mango, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. mango

    mango Senior Member

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    Nr. 5 – 15. mars 2016
    Tidsskr Nor Legeforen 2016; 136:396
    doi: 10.4045/tidsskr.15.1214

    http://tidsskriftet.no/article/3463468/en_GB

    :mad::vomit::depressed:
     
    medfeb, Valentijn, moosie and 14 others like this.
  2. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

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    There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone ...
     
    BurnA, Never Give Up, medfeb and 34 others like this.
  3. justy

    justy Donate Advocate Demonstrate

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    Seems amazing doesn't it that you can have this and Fluge and Mella's work in the same country at the same time.
     
  4. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    Two crucial things:

    The main author, Live Landmark is a Lightning Process instructor and has earned a lot of $$$ on this. A weekend course is approx £1,500.

    and:

    The questionnaire survey was done by Landmark in collaboration with Godthaab Health and Rehabilitation. The survey doesn't mention what diagnosis the participants had.
     
  5. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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    We've discussed Live Landmark before and I'd happily forgotten all about her in the meantime. This thread is an unhappy reminder that they don't go away and stop doing damage when you cast them from your mind (which in a way is a refutation of their "negative thought pattern" crackpot ideas). The usual suspects are in the references - Chalder, Crawley.

    At least the conclusion:

    offers a glimmer of hope that it won't be "systematically used in the health services" yet, but the fact that they even refer to such a possibility is disturbing enough.

    There is a comments section, but I'm not sure it's even worth engaging with such people. If they can say "There is a great need for more research on the effects of various forms of treatment" whilst not referring to the work of Flug and Mella in the same country ...

    Indeed, she declared this in the COI

    http://www.livelandmark.no/lightning-process-norge/

    The telephone questionnaire survey is valueless, anyone who's been on an LP course has already learnt that it's a thought crime punishable with a large dollop of peer ridicule, blame and guilt to express any negative thoughts whatsoever about LP.
     
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  6. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    16500 Norwegian kroner for a course. That's about $1900, €1700. She claims to have treated 1000 patients. You do the math. Safe to say that these people are never going to admit any wrongdoing until threatened with legal action.
     
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  7. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Gotta love the level of "evidence" presented in this article. "We asked 9 teenagers how they feel and they told us..."
     
  8. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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    Oh give @mango a like - it's not his fault!
     
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  9. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    Pretty much. Also:

    "it is assumed" by whom? Some anonymous authority? The scientific community?

    Where is the evidence for that? It doesn't exist. No wonder they feel the need to reassure the reader that "it is assumed".
     
  10. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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    More accurate would be "we told 9 teenagers what they were allowed to say and what they were not allowed to say, and then asked them to say what we told them to say."

    This is not an exaggeration, read this:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...with-the-lightning-process.43609/#post-706996

    It's bad enough to con sick adults out of GBP 550 for this, but to enforce it on children?

    When I was taking out all the swearwords and tidying up my earlier post on this thread I deleted the phrase "serial child abuser" because I thought it might be a bit much. Just so you know.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  11. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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    Passive Verb Syndrome rearing its ugly head again. A common affliction amongst CFS deniers.


    Just borrowing the language of science to give their totally unscientific belief system the appearance of respectability.
     
  12. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    It is possible to comment, but they expect a "scientific tone" with the use of academic references. I've translated, or replaced English with Norwegian in the boxes.

    cWFjYzFh.jpeg
     
  13. worldbackwards

    worldbackwards A unique snowflake

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    Can I just say 'bog off' or will it not reach their highly rigorous standards?
     
  14. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    Having subjected that bog off to meticulous peer review I think it will do just fine. Rather over the top for a quasi-mini-pseudo-almost-paper of this sort I would say.
     
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  15. jimells

    jimells Senior Member

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    I seem to be having trouble distinguishing reality from fiction - I thought this was a quote from the study! :eek:
     
  16. jimells

    jimells Senior Member

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    There is better evidence of serial child abuse than there is for their research conclusions. But who needs evidence as long as there is official support for a pre-determined conclusion?
     
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  17. Asa

    Asa Senior Member

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    The phrase "landmark stupidity" comes to mind...

    Otherwise -- What?! No "customer satisfaction" guarantee? If you're not competely satisfied, a full refund? Money-back guarantee?

    Client: "Hei, random LP Practitioner. Your program didn't work for me. I'd like my money back, please."

    LP Practitioner: "If I returned your money, I would be reinforcing your negativistic thinking. The only ethical choice is for me to keep your money. It's for your own good."

    What about reporting LP CFS claims to a (Norwegian) consumer protection/fraud group/dept.?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
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  18. Aurator

    Aurator Senior Member

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    I'd be interested to know whether the patients who participated in the present study were paying punters or were able to attend the course free of charge. It strikes me there's always going to be an additional incentive to believe in the efficacy of any psychotropic treatment when you've paid £1500 out of your own pocket for it. It would be interesting to follow a large sample of attendees for a time, divided into paying and non-paying groups, and see whether there is any difference in self-reported outcomes.
     
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  19. Asa

    Asa Senior Member

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    Bureaucrats might also be inclined to "blame the victim" rather than take personal responsibility for wasting public funds (in socialized healthcare systems).

    Also, I noticed that Wikipedia's Lightening Process page is available in two languages only: English and Norsk (bokmål). Both mention UK Advertising Standards Authority (Norwegian equivalent , Forbrukerombudet) and misleading claims. (The English page also mentions SMILE, but I haven't kept up with this to see if the wiki info is up-to-date.)


    From wiki Advertising Standards Authority UK:

    "These codes stipulate that 'before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation' and that 'no marketing communication should mislead, or be likely to mislead, by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise..."

    So then, the catch -- as with PACE and such -- is that descriptions of public healthcare services aren't considered marketing? So if the government puts up a page claiming success, then almost nothing can touch it. But if a private company claimed such services, they would be subject to actually proving something worked?

    Could patients (safely) set up a CBT/GET co. with PACE claims, and then a coordinated patient group file a complaint with a governement advertising bureau? Then if the ad bureau determines claims to be false/misleading, patients can use that ruling to further protest crapola public healthcare/insurance practices??
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  20. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    If you referring to the two mini "studies" mentioned in the study they all paid.

    The whole point of LP is to tell yourself that you're healthy - not sick. If you don't you won't get better. Of course one would answer in a telephone interview that one thought the course had a positive effect.

    The Norwegian ME association did a survey about different treatments. Approximately 8% said they experienced a major improvement after LP, 13% improved, 30% experienced no change, 22% got worse, and 27% got much worse. 166 patients responded.

    I find it odd that Live Landmark mentions her own survey (which doesn't even say whether the participants had ME or not) while she ignores the fact that The Norwegian ME association has done a survey on this. She claims that she doesn't know about serious side effects occurring from LP. According to the survey done by the association 49% got worse after the course. Neither of the surveys can be classified as research, but the fact that so many experienced major side effects shouldn't be withheld. I guess one can't expect an author who has personal financial interest in LP to not be extremely biased.

    Source of the survey (Norwegian): http://me-foreningen.com/meforening...ke-i-Norge-Fortsatt-bortgjemt-12-mai-2013.pdf
     

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