• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Lactic Acidosis from Probiotics

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
About acidosis...

I probably had metabolic acidosis when I was salicylate intolerant a couple of months ago. This was after a round of abx, another of probx, and some herbal supplements.

One day I remembered to test my urine pH at home and it was 4.5.

Taking sodium bicarbonate baths and increasing my magnesium intake to 600mg daily for one month (the only form I tolerated was magnesium oxide) helped me with the following symptoms:
  • relief from salicylate and nitrate intolerance
  • tooth reminaralization
  • 80% improvement in insomnia (reached 100% after taking Saccharomyces boulardii)
  • calf cramps gone
  • breathlessness mostly gone
  • lump in the throat mostly gone
  • congestion (liver?) gone
  • chest thightness/lung and heart pain gone
  • high volume, frequent urination 80% gone (reached 100% after taking S. boulardii)
  • pessimistic thoughts gone
  • odorless sweat is a plus!
  • unfortunately it did nothing for my chronic constipation, but then S. boulardii took care of it for a while.
The fact that S. boulardii did so much for me means that I had a high histamine component in my symptoms.

This site contains comprehensive info about magnesium.

izzy
 

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
@xks201 Tell me what you think of the following combination. It is in a product that contains these 3 probiotic species (the product does not contain any other species other than these three)

Streptococcus faecalis (science actually now calls it Enterococcus faecalis). It makes lactic acid. But before asking why I bothered writing this post, read about the other two species:

Clostridium butyricum It first makes lactic acid but then changes lactic acid into butyric acid. (reference: https://books.google.com/books?id=j...lostridium butyricum "changes lactic"&f=false )

Bacillus mesentericus It first makes lactic acid but then changes lactic acid into butyric acid. ( reference: https://books.google.com/books?id=b...epage&q=mesentericus "changes lactic"&f=false )

So maybe, in theory, taking this product would reduce lactic acid in the gut: although one of the three species does make lactic acid and has no redeeming qualities, the other two species apparently turn lactic acid into butyric acid (which is supposedly a beneficial acid).

Your thoughts?

The product is here:
http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Ortho...atural-Probiotic-Formula-90-Veggie-Caps/43463
 

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
@xks201 Have you tried any probiotics at all in the past couple years? Wondering if so, which ones and how did they affect you.

I have reasons to think I may have some issues with lactic producing bacteria. Have been avoiding probiotics completely for several years, and now considering trying that product.

Also, if it helps you or anyone, here's another one, this one sold on Amazon and from Japan. It is only one species - the C. Butyricum (as mentioned earlier, C. Butyricum makes lactic acid but then changes lactic acid into butyric acid. Reference: https://books.google.com/books?id=j...lostridium butyricum "changes lactic"&f=false )

http://www.amazon.com/630-Tablets-Miyarisan-By/dp/B000FQUNB0
 
Messages
1
This question is for @xks201 and @JohnK37. Over two and a half years ago I took some Iflora probiotics because I was told they were excellent at correcting digestive issues such as IBS and acid reflux, which is what I had. I had been recklessly taking all kinds of probiotic strains and strengths prior to trying the Iflora for two years. Well, after my first dose I felt I had been cured. My sinuses cleared, my skin cleared up (I have had folliculitis on my legs for years) and my stomach bloating went away. I took them for a few more days then I began to experience feelings like JohnK37. Racing thoughts, heart palpatations, systolic hypertension and cramping around my neck and throbbing in my temples and feelings of being hot at times. I felt that I was in a constant state of panic. I struggled to sleep and I could feel my heart pounding in my chest frequently. Also, my digestion had sped up too fast, always feeling like I had never eaten despite how large the meal was. I had thyroid, glucose and other metabolic tests done and they were all within the normal range. However, I found it strange that when I went and had my glucose checked, my sugar number was lower after having eaten a meal than it was when I had fasted before this mess started. I was also sensitive to carbs, sugar and foods that heightened the immune system like oranges and carrot juice just to name a couple. I read too much lactic acid can over heighten the immune response, which is what this felt like. I began to do considerably better for some time after receiving bi weekly and now monthly chiropractic adjustments, staying away from certain foods and taking COQ10, fish oil and herbal teas, chammomille and lemon balm.

Another curious, but positive side affect was that I was losing excessive hair in the shower, which I attributed to stress and poor immune function. Well, that all stopped as well and it in fact seemed to start feeling fuller and thicker again. Also, alcohol seems to help as well, as it seems to depress my immune system some.

I have a difficult time taking vitamin D as it makes me feel like I’m drunk and or high and the last few months it has caused me anxiety. Co10 seemed to help for awhile, but lately I have been unable to take it either. Vitamin D is also more of a secosteroid I’m told and does things to the immune system.

Lately, from time to time, I feel like my pancreas is being overworked, because I feel overly acidic in my stomach and my left side feels a bit tender. Exercise, vitamin d and cinnamon have helped with this when it arises and usually only arises when I get away from my diet. Moderate exercise, walking/running and stretching seem to help a good deal as well.

I am growing tired of this as it has almost been three years. I have seen several doctors and even traveled to Washington DC to meet a nutritionally knowledgeable gastro doctor. None of them can tell me what’s wrong.

I had a metametrix stool test done about six months before all this happened and it did not show high lacto producing bacteria, but slightly low e-coli and bifido.

I am at a loss of what to do and it has hampered my quality of life at times and I just want it to all be over so I can be normal again.

@xks201, I read about what you said regarding the good e-coli bacteria. @xks201, where you ever able to try the Mutaflor? If so, what was the result? @JohnK37, how have you been of late? what has worked for you?

Any and all help would be much appreciated from anyone. I am currently 26 years old and a male.

THANKs![/USER]
 
Last edited:

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
Hi South, did you try that probiotic? How did it go? DO you have IBS-C or IBs-D? I am wanting to try it for constipation (candida?).
Hi @Gondwanaland ,

I ordered Miyarisan from Amazon (it hasn't arrived yet), because it only has one bacteria: the C. Butyricum, and it is one that turns lactic acid into butyric acid (reference is in my earlier post in this thread). I figured that might be better than the other product I mentioned, which has 3 bacteria (earlier post talks about that).

Thanks for asking!

I won't have any results to report for awhile after I get the Miyarisan though, because due to past bad experiences, I'll start it at extremely low doses and ***verrrry*** gradually increasing.

I have the constipation problem too. Have wondered for years if it is candida, and tried various things for that, but no real progress.
 

el_squared

Senior Member
Messages
127
I want to share with you all something that the general treatment forum did not reply to. I have been having burning stool, shallow and infrequent breathing, fatigue and dizziness. Basically these are all symptoms of metabolic acidosis. I have been taking acidophalus and probiotics which are all lactic acid generating probiotics. This is causing my problems and may be causing yours. Lactic acid is generated post workout and makes your arms feel heavy. Look up symptoms of metabolic acidosis and compare them to your CFS symptoms. There have been threads on this and there are studies showing CFS patients have a higher % of lactic acid producing bacteria and high lactic acid levels. This has to be the cause of CFS if other causes are eliminated and the doctor gives up. So many of you cannot tolerate probiotics and have these symptoms.

In cattle they use lactic acid utilizing bacteria to prevent metabolic acidosis when they switch them to a grain diet. They should sell these for humans since these bacteria also make up the natural flora of the human gut. Only babies naturally have acidophalus in their gut because they have next to no digestive enzymes so the bacteria ferments and acidifies the food for them. The body cannot even metabolize D-Lactate which is generated from many of the lactic acid "probiotic" bacteria. It is a potent neurotoxin and D-lactate acidosis has been documented in medical literature from probiotic supplementation.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. It is the cause of my CFS. Whether or not the probiotics caused it or I already had an overgrowth to begin with of lactic acid producing bacteria, I do not know, but I do know I get significantly worse if I take lactic acid probiotics as do many of you.

My band aid solution for now is to go on a vegetable diet for 2 weeks, eliminate dairy, and keep carbohydrates down. I may fast for a day and drink lots of water the entire 2 weeks. I have a green drink I will be drinking. I am looking for probiotics containing lactic acid utilizing bacteria and I have found none on the human market. I do not believe that the issue is simply a problem of D-Lactate poisoning but also L-Lactate poisoning as probiotics such as culturelle which contain L-Lactate (the form of lactate the body can metabolize) producing Lactobacillus GG also give me the same relapse.

All of us have the same symptoms, or at least 90% of the same symptoms. Post exertion fatigue is one of them. As someone who has tried every hormone replacement therapy (even simultaneous hormone replacement), I can attest that if the gut bacteria are proportionally off and a higher % of them are lactic acid producing as opposed to lactic acid utilizing, this will generate chronic metabolic acidosis and cause every symptom of chronic fatigue despite attempting to balance the hormonal system or take anti virals or do whatever else esoteric procedure the doctor claims is beneficial for debilitating fatigue which clearly is the result of an extreme metabolic problem such as metabolic acidosis. Seeing as most of us were at one point normal, a genetic factor is most unlikely. What is more likely is an overgrowth of lactic acid producing bacteria that overpowers the bacteria that metabolize/break down that lactic acid.

Plant based digestive enzymes may also help this problem in addition to the above simultaneous measures. I just want you all to be very careful before you start chugging lactic acid producing probiotics that are not giving you much benefit.
Hello all,
> A week ago i took 1 pill of gnc ultra 75 billion probiotics. I had extreme side effects from it. My mind felt as if it was racing fast and i could not concentrate. Afterwards i felt extremely depressed. It was not a normal depression, it felt like a chemical one. As well i had muscle spasms around my neck and my leg. 2 days after i drank a cup of yogurt and i had similar reactions again. It has been 6 days and the feelings are still lingering. I am having a hard time concentrating and my mind does not feel it is functioning properly. Is it possible that this is happening because of d-lactate acidosis? I had recently been diagnosed with h pylori bacteria and i had finished the therapy with the antibiotics. I was interested in using probiotics in order to further strain the helicobacter. I am wondering if this feeling from the probiotics will go away and if so does your company provide other probiotic strains that will not produce these side effects. What is your view on is problem and will it go away... Does it take time for the probiotics to leave your system or did the probiotics colonize leaving me with a further occurence of these side effects. As well, i feel better after i drink a half liter of water. Could it be that the good bacteria is fighting the bad bacteria and it is releasing toxins which is giving me these effects. If anyone could please help me i would greatly appreciate it.

Wow, I'm just reading about this issue. I have CFS among other issues and have been taking a lot of VSL#3 for years now. Today, a new GI doc who is very reputable said: People with CFS shouldn't take probiotics.

I didn't get a chance to follow up, but maybe it's this issue. I have gone through bad periods where I'm short of breath and have sore and weak muscles and have basically been bedbound. Wow, this is crazy if this is true. To think I was making myself worse and spending a lot of my paltry salary to do it!
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
Today, a new GI doc who is very reputable said: People with CFS shouldn't take probiotics.
As far as I'm concerned they don't know what they're talking about. Then again most doctor's don't know much when it comes to probiotics.

Granted, most Lactobacillus strains are generally contraindicated for ME/CFS but other strains such as Mutalfor are standard treatments used by well respected ME/CFS specialists such as Kenny de Meirleir.
 
Last edited:

el_squared

Senior Member
Messages
127
See I had no idea that Lactobaccillus is contraindicated for CFS. I think there's a lot of that in VSL#3.
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
See I had no idea that Lactobaccillus is contraindicated for CFS. I think there's a lot of that in VSL#3.
Yeah, it contains...
  • Lactobacillus acidophilus
  • Lactobacillus plantarum
  • Lactobacillus paracasei
  • Lactobacillus bulgaricus
Ken Lassenen, who has gone into remission 3 times, is a big proponent of using probiotics to treat ME/CFS. He seems to think that Lactobacillus reuteri is the only Lactobacillus strain that is beneficial for ME/CFS. His other favorite probiotics are Prescript Assist and Mutaflor. His blog is a wealth of information if you're interesting in further reading on the subject.

Some with ME/CFS do well on VSL#3 and others don't. Me, and a few other forum members, have gotten a great deal of benefit with Miyarisan (Clostridium butyricum) while others have had disastrous results. To be honest, although I feel that Probiotics are one of the best treatment options, they are very hit and miss. I'm assuming it probably comes down to what subgroup a person belongs to.

Ken's opinion is that a probiotic won't be beneficial unless it causes a "herx" reaction. I believe his logic is that a beneficial probiotic will kill off negative strains causing temporary, but manageable, distress. I think this further complicates matters as it's very difficult to differentiate a legitimate negative reaction from a temporary "herx".
 

el_squared

Senior Member
Messages
127
Very interesting. I had no idea people thought a lot of probiotics could cause die off. For the first couple of years of taking VSL#3 daily I thought it was helping my immune system, helping me get less sinus infections, etc. But my fatigue and pain has been so bad that I have been on disability the past couple of months. Last summer and at other times of the past 2.5 years I have had what might be herx reactions -- so weak and short of breath, feeling like I have the flu -- when I wasn't on anything that would cause that I'll read more about it, thanks.
 

Deltrus

Senior Member
Messages
271
Hey guys, I think that probiotics should be taken to PREVENT lactic acidosis. From what I've observed, high ammonia interferes with mitochondrial signalling, and this makes it hard for them to respond to exercise.

Gut pathogens that thrive in "basic" conditions create high ammonia. When you exercise or move too much, and your mitochondria can't respond in time, glycolysis is activated outside the mitochondria, and lactate/pyruvate are generated.

The way to fix both ammonia from gut, and lactate from gut, would be to cut down on supplements which alkalize the gut, and take supplements that acidify the gut such as vitamin c, vinegar, alcar. But ideally you have some probiotics.
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
The trick is finding the right probiotic to take. Seems pretty clear to me that there is no "one size fits all" solution. It takes a lot of research and n=1 experimentation to find out what's right for each person's individual physiological needs.
 
Last edited:

Mimi

Senior Member
Messages
203
Location
Medford, OR
Agreed. FWIW, Sacchomyces boulardii made a world of difference for me. But I was already taking Lufenuron to fight Candida. S. boulardii just gave it a boost. Now I'm working with Soverign Labs liposomal colostrum. Love that stuff. M