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Lactic Acidosis from Probiotics

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by xks201, May 21, 2012.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Mimi --

    Wondering if you're still taking bifidus? And if your digestion is still improved?

    Thanks in advance,

    Dan
  2. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    WOW! Hi I am new here, this info on probiotics is really interesting.i feel like if I can get my gut under more control I will get my cfs under more control.i have been thinking this for a few years now. I feel like I need help with it. have just made myself relapse on lactobacillus rhamnosus lgg and bifidobacterium animalis bb-12. I also feel awful if I have greek yoghurt.i have noticed that it affects my brain and gut and breathing and muscles and tension gets worse.its nuts! and the heavy arms and legs thing! gets real severe.i am so gutted that I cant tolerate probiotics.but this has showed me that this has a big relation with me somehow.im not sure where to start. I am in new Zealand. looks like I might have too much lactic acid thing maybe.im sure I have gastritis,weaning off coffee.i do fodmaps and last time I reduced coffee right down I discovered it was what was keeping my gut moving.mental. I really don't want to be back on omeprazole, seems to just make me worse.i better do the introduce section.have align bifantis but Im a bit nervous to fiddle with more things in this state!:redface:
  3. Mogwai

    Mogwai

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    Bugger...

    Well I think this explains why my gut has gone berserk the last few days. Decided to try some probiotics that my brother takes for IBS, with good success. I was doing fine for a couple of weeks, but the last few days have been rough.

    It has to be the probiotics - nothing else has changed. Ah well...
  4. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    it is a bugger ay!!! what sort and strains were they?
  5. Mogwai

    Mogwai

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    Just the two, as I didn't want to push my luck - BAH!

    Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium lactis.

    Then I read this thread and do some more digging:

    http://www.mecfsassist.org/1/post/2...t-d-lactate-probioticsfiber-use-in-mecfs.html

    If I understand you correctly its possible that strains of Lactobaccilus bacteria that are frequently found in probiotic preparations could exacerbate lactic acid production. Apparently Lactobaccillus acidophilus turns sugars into lactic acid.

    Yes, but not all Lactobacillus strains produce the undesirable D-Lactate (for example, the well-researched Lactobacillus GG does not produce D-Lactate, but most strains of Lactobacillus have not been investigated for D-Lactate production. Its time to map that out properly).

    It’s generally true that L.acidophilus does turn sugars into lactic acid, but not all Lactobacillus strains produce the D-Lactate; the L-Lactate can be cleared with a fair amount of ease by most.

    Do you recommend staying away from the traditional formulations (L acidophilus)?
    Most probiotics marketed under the umbrella term “acidophilus” have not been researched for health outcomes (let alone stability!) and we have no idea of their D-Lactate potential. It is known from studies in short bowel syndrome that unspecified strains of L. acidophilus can be major promoters of D-Lactate.
  6. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    I got myself into trouble with lactobaccilus GG and animalis combo. whatever happened with this it was powerful.dont know if it was a die off I couldn't handle but it was like allergic. I think some people do really well and some don't. I think I might go ok on bifantis but will have to up the fibre if I do cos that one felt quite diff the one tablet I took the other day.a little hesitant cos of my level of sensitivity also I know how powerful these can be now.i want to know more about it all now.
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    aimossy,

    I got a severe allergic reaction just from the Lacto GG in Culturelle, and from then on the Jarrow Acidopholous. Have you tried just bifido?
    aimossy likes this.
  8. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Hate to burst your bubbles guys but D-Lactate and L-Lactate interconvert to each other. lol
    aimossy likes this.
  9. Peyt

    Peyt

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  10. finalgates

    finalgates

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    baking soda isnt good for this?
  11. Peyt

    Peyt

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    Not at all! (I tried it , it made me feel worst!)
  12. WNM

    WNM

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    Some of my thoughts on the matter.

    In the gut lactate is usually rapidly metabolised to butyrate. An imbalance of lactate producing versus utilising bacteria may promote lactate accumulation; as may an excessively low pH. This classically occurs in short bowel syndrome where Lactobacilli and Leuconostoc are increased, and others such as Clostridium and Bacteriodetes decreased. Common bacteria in probiotics which can produce D-lactate include lactobacillus acidophilus, plantarum and bulgarius.

    In CFS research the Sheedy culture-based study found increased levels of D-lactate producing Streptococcus and Enteroccoccus. The most recent gut microbiota study using updated methodology (16s rRNA gene sequencing) found Strep levels were usually below 5% of total bacteria, but up to 15-60% in a few patients. These results may suggest an increased potential to generate D-lactate in some with CFS.

    I think increased gut lactate production in some with CFS may relate to SIBO. This would allow bacteria increased access to dietary carbohydrate which can be metabolised to L/D-lactate. There was one study ages ago which found SIBO in 77% of CFS patients (31), and its eradication led to symptom improvement. Gut bacteria involved in SIBO were identified in one study although the overall lactate metabolism is not clear. The main risk factors for SIBO are low stomach acid (HCl) and slowed intestinal motility or constipation. Anecdotally many people with CFS feel they have low HCL. Gastric emptying is also slow in CFS which might also imply upper intestinal motility is too in some people.

    There is still no study directly measuring D-lactate levels in ME/CFS. Other studies finding increased lactate levels in muscles upon exertion are consistent with impaired oxidative energy metabolism and a shift toward anaerobic metabolism. This may similarly explain the increased brain lactate in CFS. Hence in these studies the lactate is not likely of gut origin. However some people with CFS may have increased D-lactate levels; although probably not severely high.

    I think removing SIBO is probably key (improve HCl and digestion?). You could avoid most lactic acid bacteria (LAB) probiotics and FOS which may promote more lactate accumulation. However some pre and probiotics may be able to improve D-lactate acidosis; perhaps mainly by boosting Bifidobacteria. Carbs could be removed initially then you could boost butyrate-producing bacteria (e.g. Roseburia, Feacalibacterium and Blautia coccoides) by consuming lots of vegetables, fruit, fibre and resistant starch.

    It is worth remembering that whilst current probiotics are typically based around lactate-producing Lactobacilli bacteria, this genus should be a very minor component of the normal gut microbiota. Like with many things in science what we first learn to appreciate attracts most research attention and becomes a bias exploited by mass marketing.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
    Crux likes this.
  13. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    I found this study a while back being carried in Australia. It is a follow up study on the Sheedy paper, which found higher than normal levels of d-lactate producing bacteria in the stools of CFS patients. They are looking at d-lactate in blood, stool and urine samples, in CFS patients.

    http://sacfs.asn.au/download/Lactic acid study 2008 - Ethics Application.pdf
  14. Peyt

    Peyt

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    Thanks for your reply,
    You are spot on as far as Low stomach acid and slow motility being a common symptom on SIBO patients. As I mentioned before, I have SIBO, and I take HCL for low stomach and get help from certain foods, magnesium, and Prescript-Assist(another Probiotic) for slow motility. And although this combination has been very helpful, I am still looking to improve further.

    I did purchase the Bifido Complex from Kirkman .. today is my 2nd day on it... so far I have not had any side effects
    but no improvements either. I will report back in a couple of weeks if i see any actual improvements.

    Interestingly enough, about 3 weeks ago, I started on another probiotic called "Cardioviva", which has been very helpful. I initially purchased this probiotic to help with my high cholesterol and low vitamin D because that's what this product is advertised for.., but after I started taking it, I noticed after about 4 days that the mouth thrush i always have reduced to half and much lighter and also my body felt lighter and I seem to be able to move around and exercise. anyways, here is that probiotic:
    http://www.amazon.com/Cardioviva-Vegetable-Capsules-90-Count/dp/B00CFIO7EK

    When I looked at the ingredient of Cardioviva, it says all it has is 1 strain of bacteria which is: L. Reuteri
    Anyways, whatever it has, it's working for me, so this one is definitely a keeper... as far as Bifido Complex, I need more time to assess it.
    Good luck to all.
  15. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    FYI. Those who have trouble with D-Lactate-producing species almost always do better on an SBO (soil based organism) probiotic.

    If you do your research on SBO's, you'll come across some fear-mongering by people who have a stake in dairy-based probiotics claiming that SBO's will run rampant in your gut. It's not true. SBOs are extremely safe. Those false rumors were covered here.
  16. Peyt

    Peyt

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    Yes, as I mentioned I am taking Prescript-assist... that's the soil based probiotic Chris Kresser is talking about. (I am very familiar with his work and podcasts) ... It's helpful, in the sense of motility, but does nothing as far as degrading histamine which is the root of the problem which slows down bowel movement. I am looking to lower my histamine producing bacteria, and increase my histamine degrading ones...
  17. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Well, according to Kresser...


    Also prebiotics, particularly Resistant Starch, are known to help bloom bifido populations in the gut better than probiotics can.
  18. Peyt

    Peyt

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    Yes, that's exactly why I started experimenting with Probiotics again after leaving them alone for about a year. The thing I don't understand is that he names L. reuteri as a histamine producing one, but when I take the product I mentioned earlier "Cardioviva" which has only single strain of L. reuteri my mouth thrush reduces, my sinus congestion reduces and i feel so much lighter... i still have not figured that one out yet... but because of this, I feel even Chris Kresser (and the whole medical community for that matter) is in the early stages of learning about Histamine degrading vs. producing bacterias... I have a feeling as more research will come out we will know alot more stuff that actually can be applied in real life.

    BTW, today is my 4th day on that Bifido Complex from Kirkman, and instead of reducing my histamine I can feel/tell it's going the wrong direction! My nose was stuffy this morning when I woke up and mouth thrush covered my tong again! .... I am gonna take it for a few more days. I do feel my food is somewhat digesting better... so i have a feeling there is a strain in the formula that is helping and perhaps others that are not.... I am also learning that I am having more success with single strain products because once i take them i am clear as to if this strain is helping or not, but when i take probiotics that have bunch of strains in them, i feel like some things improve and some don't which now makes total sense to me... I have Gut Dysbiosis, and since there is not a test that can tell me exactly which bacterias I have too much of and which ones I have not enough of , I am (like the rest of the people with Gut Dysbosis) are shooting in the dark and trying different ones hoping I get lucky and find the ones that I am low on....

    Gut Dysbiosis is a very complicated thing when there is not a test for it that can accurately measure all the strains of bacteria in the gut. I guess this is why what works for me may not work for another person, because I may be low on 1 strain and someone else on another. But our condition is both classified under Gut Dysbiosis.
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    @Peyt

    Take a look at the Rethinking Probiotics thread, it's about histamine.
    katim likes this.
  20. Peyt

    Peyt

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    Just wanted to give an update, I have stopped the Bifido Complex by Kirkman , it was clearly not working for me. Later I discovered that one of the strains in that Bifido formula does not do well for people that have fat malabsorption(it's the Bifido Bifidum). Since then, I called Custom Probiotics and bought some pure B. Longum which according to this study helps digest Fructose:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249088/

    Ever since I started taking a small amount of B. Longum with each meal, I no longer have gas. But my bloating still remains. So still looking for more answers. I am tempted to try that "Probio Defense" which is mentioned in the "Rethinking Probiotics" thread. It has the B. Longum that works for me without the B. Bifidum.

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