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Lactic Acidosis from Probiotics

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by xks201, May 21, 2012.

  1. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    fyi -

    Probiotics Provoked D-lactic Acidosis in Short Bowel Syndrome: Case Report and Literature Review​
    WH KU, DCY LAU, KF HUEN​

    Metabolism of D-lactic Acid
    When the condition of D-lactic acidosis was first described in human by Oh et al in 1979,2 it was thought that the metabolism of D-lactic acid is very slow in humans. Subsequent studies showed that healthy human subjects can metabolise D-lactic acid rapidly.30 The L-lactic acid is metabolised by the L-lactate dehydrogenase (L-LDH). Although humans do not possess D-lactate dehydrogenase (D-LDH), they can still metabolise D-lactic acid with the D-2-hydroxyacid dehydrogenase (D-2-HDH).31 The D-2- HDH is an intramitochondrial flavoprotein with highest activity in the kidney and liver. Experiments showed that in healthy human subjects, they can metabolise the intravenously or orally administrated D-lactic acid efficiently. However, when D- and L-lactic acids are present in high concentration they will cross inhibit each other's metabolism.31 D-lactic acidosis results from its overproduction and accumulation. The formation of organic acids during bacterial carbohydrate fermentation also inhibits the oxidation of D-lactic acid, which is prerequisite for its metabolism.31 These may explain why administration of D-lactic acid to healthy human subjects fails to produce D-lactic acidosis.

    Mechanism of Neurological Manifestations
    The neurological manifestations in D-lactic acidosis cannot be explained by the acidosis alone, as patients with acidosis resulting from other causes do not demonstrate the clinical features of D-lactic acidosis. In some patients with D-lactic acidosis the correction of acidosis with bicarbonate failed to improve the neurological symptoms. There are two proposed mechanism for the encephalopathy. The first one is the direct toxic effect of D-lactic acid to the brain.8,32 D-lactate can diffuse into the brain cells, causing decrease in intraneuronal pH, inhibits the pyruvate decarboxylation by the pyruvate dehydrogenase comlpex. Subsequently the production of acetyl CoA and adenosine triphosphate is impaired, resulting in altered neurotransmitter production. The cerebellum has particularly little reserve of pyruvate dehydrogenase complex, thus the cerebellar symptoms such as ataxia and slurred speech is prominent in D-lactic acidosis. The activity of pyruvate dehydrogenase complex is also impaired by thiamine deficiency. This may explain the difference in susceptibility to D-lactic acid in different subjects.

    Clinical Manifestations of D-lactic Acidosis
    Upon review of the patients in our case series, impaired mental status was a universal feature in D-lactic acidosis. Patients could present with confusion, stupor, or impaired conscious level ranging from somnolence, lethargy, drowsiness, to lost of consciousness and coma. There were cerebellar symptoms with ataxia, nystagmus, slurred speech and gait disturbance. Higher cognitive function impairment included aggressive behaviour, inability to concentrate, agitation, carbohydrate craving, "unhappy" and irritability. Other neurological manifestations were weakness, headache, bruxism and opisthotonus. The metabolic acidosis led to hyperventilation and tachypnoea. There were non-specific symptoms including nausea or pallor.
     
  2. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/7/1/79/


    Gut inflammation in chronic fatigue syndrome

    Shaheen E Lakhan* and Annette Kirchgessner

    ...People with CFS were shown to have higher concentrations of intestinal bacteria than normal, which probably leads to higher levels of H2S. Professor Kenny De Meirleir of the Brussels Free University and his team say high levels of H2S caused by an intestinal overgrowth of Gram positive D/L lactate-producing bacteria play a major role in CFS and lead to a series of reactions in your body that leave cells devoid of oxygen and energy.

    I see: bad bacteria --> D-Lactate overproduction --> H2S formation --> mitochondrial asphyxiation

    This means we are getting brain toxicity from both D-Lactate and H2S as well as fatigue from mitochondrial dysfunction

     
  3. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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  4. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    That is exactly what my tests show. I have a high ratio of gram + to gram - bacteria, high H2S and the rest follows.

    Sushi
     
    end, Clodomir and August59 like this.
  5. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Sushi - How did you deal with your gut situation?
     
  6. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Complex--involved testing and treating from test results. I'll PM you.

    Sushi
     
  7. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Hi Sushi, I'd like to hear what you are doing as well. Can you copy me some of your conversation? I'm working really hard on this right now, and you are my example.

    Mimi
     
  8. BiancaS

    BiancaS

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    Hi, I also suffer from D-lactic and Lactic acidosis, with lower sodium and bicarbonate levels in my ABG test. Taking enteric coated Sodium bicarbonate pills currently to deal with this.
    Sushi, I realise you found some sort of solution for this, can you pls share it with us? It woul dbe very helpful for me to understand what you have done.

    I got the D-lactic free probiotics from custom probiotics, however, I am not very confident in taking it, since not only D-lactic, but also L-lactic seems to be my problem. Low urine and low saliva PH. So far, I am taking Liver Life from Bioray to help with draining acids and so far, this seems to be helping a bit. Also, I am starting on the GAPS diet, but they require fermented food and all, which I am also not confident in taking. I am looking at taking a 2 week course of AB to deal with the overgrowth, but how to continue from there. What is the correct step to re-build the gut? Just bifido for a while? No probiotics, just food?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
  9. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    I also tried the D-Lactate free probiotics from Custom Probiotics and it gave me horrible diarrhea. That stopped on a dime when I stopped taking that product. I studied the issue in depth and learned that an excess of L-lactate will use up all the enzymes that are used to detox both L-lactate and D-lactate, so you don't want to take any Lactobacillus products. As you have found.

    I talked to the owner, and he sent me a free sample of 15g of Bifido - his regular 4-strain Bifido product. That worked like a charm. I have had excellent digestion ever since, and I credit it to taking Bifido, along with glucosamine HCL and NAG to rebuild the lining of the gut (aka the glycocalyx).

    Bifido species have been found to be sorely lacking in people with CFS. And there's another study which shows how different strains of Bifido digest different types of sugars - FODMAPs, if you know that term - and thus aid digestion. In fact, they play a critical role.

    Since other strains can be easily obtained from yogurt, etc., I only supplement Bifido. And 15 g goes a long way.
     
    Hanna likes this.
  10. BiancaS

    BiancaS

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    Hi, thanks so much, you are a star! That's what I thought. I assume you have the custom probiotics Bifido only? I am flying to Hawaii in 2 days and will order them for delivery there! What is the other stuff you are taking? Never heard of it. I have a CBS upregulation, so have to be careful with anything sulfate. I take sulfate through food and can take that well, but trying to avoid supplement sulfate. Can you post a link to the other stuff? Did you take any antibiotics to deal with the overgrowth?

    I strongly suspect ongoing parasite issues, so will also do a round of humaworm.
     
  11. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    Bianca could you please explain more for me what cbs upreg is and how you know you have it? I suspect I dont do well with sulphates in supplements like magnesium or medications but not sure how to prove it and i feel rotten alot lots of sensitivities so hard to always know whats doing what.

    I was taking s boulaardi until i read it can cause candida.
    I just found out have some sort of parasites from a test thru metametrix (sp?) I am supposed to take alinia for 3 days but am putting it off because have stuff to do and dont want to deal with possible die off or feeling sicker right now.
    I am not sure how to work on my gut anymore, so much conflicting advice out there.
    I took mutaflor for awhile thought it was sort of good but then didnt notice anything and was hassle to order from germany to u.s.
     
  12. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Hi Bianca,

    Let's see what I can pull out of my book marks. http://organic3.com/d-lactate-free-probiotics/ explains about D-lactate and L-lactate probiotics in Gut-PRO. The other articles I downloaded but didn't bookmark, but if you can explain how to link an article, I'll post them here.
     
  13. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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  14. Erica

    Erica Erica Verrillo

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    Xrayspex, it's probably too late, but before you embark on a treatment for parasites with either metronidazole (Flagyl)or Alinia (which is a less harmful version of metronidazole), take a look at this abstract. Mebendazole (Rx) and pyrantel pamoate (available over the counter) are much gentler on the system. I have had many parasitic infections, and this combo works.
    Alternative treatment for intestinal parasites

    Southeast Asian J Trop Med Public Health. 1980 Sep;11(3):324-31.

    Human intestinal parasites in Karakuak, West Flores, Indonesia and the effect of treatment with mebendazole and pyrantel pamoate.

    Purnomo, Partono F, Soewarta A.
    A survey for intestinal parasites and mass-treatment with a combination of mebendazole and pyrantel pamoate were conducted in Karakuak, West Flores in 1977. A total of 198 stool specimens from 104 males and 94 females ranging in age from less than 1 to 70 years were examined and 72% harbored one or more intestinal parasites. Ascaris lumbricoides (43%) and Entamoeba histolytica (21%) were the most common, followed by Entamoeba coli (19%), hookworm (18%), Iodamoeba b├╝tschlii (8%), Giardia lamblia (5%) and Trichuris trichiura (4%). Other intestinal parasites infrequently found were: Entamoeba hartmanni (2%), Chilomastix mesnili (2%), Endolimax nana (1%), Enterobius vermicularis (1%) and a heterophyid sp. (1%). A combination of mebendazole base at 200 mg/day and pyrantel pamoate salt at 60 mg/day for three consecutive days was 100% effective.
    PMID: 7444573 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
     
  15. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    d-lactate and l-lactate interconvert back and fourth.
     
  16. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

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    Hi, xrayspex

    More conflicting advice :confused:

    I think saccharomyces boulardii is supposed to help fight candida? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20629753
     
    xrayspex likes this.
  17. Kelly C.

    Kelly C.

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    Wow! Thank you for your post. My health was doing great after a long break from probiotics. I took one today and lost the day to exhaustion. This was the missing link. It makes so much sense! I know this barely helps but there is one supplement called Mutaflor that is an e. coli strain. It's no longer sold in the states but I have ordered it from Canada. I'm also considering driving to Vancouver to buy more as I'm fairly close to the border. I've taken it before and it was helpful, though I didn't understand why until now. Thanks again for the post!
     
    Wayne and Little Bluestem like this.
  18. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

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    hello!! ive been reading info about lactic acid and probiotic and here mention about bifidus probiotic as a better option but then i google about it and find that bifidus is easy to mutate and tend to overgrow too and caused health issues which is bad. it left me more confused again. i guess the most important thing is to keep things in balance but the tricky and hard part is when your system is already out of balance and you dont know which was more dominant and cause the problem.
    anyway i was thinking i guess its better to just eat fermented veggies food?
     
  19. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    I dunno. I found some papers saying that Bifida is really important for digesting food. Different strains digest different types of sugars. It seemed to help me - no more FODMAP problems. I can even eat dairy. Haven't tried gluten, don't want to get crazy..
     
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  20. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

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    Mimi of course there are many source stated beneficial things about bifidus just like lactobasillus but if you google it there are many who also mention about overgrowth of bifidus. heres one of it
    The Risk of Bifidus and SIBO (Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth)
    The medical school textbook, Biochemistry and Physiology of Bifidobacteria, written by Anatoly Bezkorovainy, professor at Rush Medical College comments on this as well.
    This book explains that bifidus is helpful for humans except under certain conditions. One of these exceptions is SIBO.(small intestine bacterial overgrowth) Bifidus tends to overgrow and cause fat malabsorption for people with SIBO. Many people with digestive problems have SIBO in their bodies
    To view the comments inside the book regarding the risk with bifidus:
    Scroll down the page until you see "Metabolic Disorders Associated with Bacterial Overgrowth."
    http://www.amazon.com/reader/084934753X?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib_books_pg&qid=1246527705&query=Biochemistry and Physiology of Bifidobacteria gastrointestinal overgrowth#reader

    It is easy for bifidus to overgrow and mutate. Bifidus can become a pathogen just as candida or another microorganism. An overgrowth of a
    normally beneficial microorganism turns it into a pathogen. That is why Elaine recommended that we only use a few bacterial strains for our supplements or yogurt making, limiting to just the few strains that are more community minded. She discusses bifidus on her website:
    www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/knowledge_base/kb/bifidus.htm

    and doesnt bifidus also produce lactate?
     

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