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Lactic Acidosis from Probiotics

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by xks201, May 21, 2012.

  1. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    I want to share with you all something that the general treatment forum did not reply to. I have been having burning stool, shallow and infrequent breathing, fatigue and dizziness. Basically these are all symptoms of metabolic acidosis. I have been taking acidophalus and probiotics which are all lactic acid generating probiotics. This is causing my problems and may be causing yours. Lactic acid is generated post workout and makes your arms feel heavy. Look up symptoms of metabolic acidosis and compare them to your CFS symptoms. There have been threads on this and there are studies showing CFS patients have a higher % of lactic acid producing bacteria and high lactic acid levels. This has to be the cause of CFS if other causes are eliminated and the doctor gives up. So many of you cannot tolerate probiotics and have these symptoms.

    In cattle they use lactic acid utilizing bacteria to prevent metabolic acidosis when they switch them to a grain diet. They should sell these for humans since these bacteria also make up the natural flora of the human gut. Only babies naturally have acidophalus in their gut because they have next to no digestive enzymes so the bacteria ferments and acidifies the food for them. The body cannot even metabolize D-Lactate which is generated from many of the lactic acid "probiotic" bacteria. It is a potent neurotoxin and D-lactate acidosis has been documented in medical literature from probiotic supplementation.

    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. It is the cause of my CFS. Whether or not the probiotics caused it or I already had an overgrowth to begin with of lactic acid producing bacteria, I do not know, but I do know I get significantly worse if I take lactic acid probiotics as do many of you.

    My band aid solution for now is to go on a vegetable diet for 2 weeks, eliminate dairy, and keep carbohydrates down. I may fast for a day and drink lots of water the entire 2 weeks. I have a green drink I will be drinking. I am looking for probiotics containing lactic acid utilizing bacteria and I have found none on the human market. I do not believe that the issue is simply a problem of D-Lactate poisoning but also L-Lactate poisoning as probiotics such as culturelle which contain L-Lactate (the form of lactate the body can metabolize) producing Lactobacillus GG also give me the same relapse.

    All of us have the same symptoms, or at least 90% of the same symptoms. Post exertion fatigue is one of them. As someone who has tried every hormone replacement therapy (even simultaneous hormone replacement), I can attest that if the gut bacteria are proportionally off and a higher % of them are lactic acid producing as opposed to lactic acid utilizing, this will generate chronic metabolic acidosis and cause every symptom of chronic fatigue despite attempting to balance the hormonal system or take anti virals or do whatever else esoteric procedure the doctor claims is beneficial for debilitating fatigue which clearly is the result of an extreme metabolic problem such as metabolic acidosis. Seeing as most of us were at one point normal, a genetic factor is most unlikely. What is more likely is an overgrowth of lactic acid producing bacteria that overpowers the bacteria that metabolize/break down that lactic acid.

    Plant based digestive enzymes may also help this problem in addition to the above simultaneous measures. I just want you all to be very careful before you start chugging lactic acid producing probiotics that are not giving you much benefit.
    aimossy likes this.
  2. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Hi xks201,

    D-lactic acid stuff is a huge interest for me, so I was wondering whether you have had your d-lactic acid level tested, formally, by your doc? If so, can I ask what the level was? Are you seeing a GI for this?

    Sorry to bombard you, but I am very interested in this, as I suspect my daughter has some kind of similar thing going on, problems with carbs that cause neurological changes, but in her case the changes are autistic changes. They stop 3 days after carbs are stopped, which is the same as in high d-lactic acid levels.

    Not sure if you have seen my thread on d-lactic acid, I have put some case studies there, if they are of interest to you.
    Rebeca Carvallo likes this.
  3. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    I am a chemical engineering major and I am so braindead when I eat carbs it is unbelievable compared to when I go on a strictly vegetable diet for the day. I weigh around 210 lbs and so it's hard for me to sustain myself off vegetables. I am on several antibiotics. I have not had D-Lactate tested, but the burning stool with no evidence of pathogenic bacteria and wild PH swings. One of my doctors diagnosed metabolic acidosis simply by measuring urine and saliva PHs with breath rate and breath hold time (which is a good indicator). I know the triggers. I am peeing all the time and the urine is often acid. I have been taking way too many lactic acid bacteria and when I take them I also get extremely worse. I am looking for a D-Lactate test now.
  4. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    This is very very interesting and I'll be watching your progress iwth this. Probiotics and yogurt make me feel worse too, however, my metametrix GI complete panel showed levels of virtually all beneficial bacteria and no bad. So I'm wondering too what role leaky gut plays in this.
  5. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Beneficial levels E. Coli as well? There should be a 50% - 50% level of lactic acid producing and lactic acid utilizing bacteria from what I have read.
  6. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    You might have bacterial overgrowth in your small intestine, in which case the metametrix G.I. test would not detect the high levels of D-lactate, and bad bacteria. That's the case with me. I had a urine test which detected that stuff while the G.I. test found totally different stuff
    Liz
  7. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Liz so how did you fix it? Which antibiotics? What diet changes? Anything else?
  8. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    YOu would think so but all of hydrogen breath testing, methane breath testing and urine hydrogen sulfide were all negative. That leaves yeast or carbon dioxide producing bacteria.
  9. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if all D-Lactate producing bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide, methane..etc.
  10. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    It looks like our health system in canada tests d -lactate. I've added it to my list of things to discuss iwth my doctor. Ideally, testing before and after taking lactic acid probiotics would be the most useful. But not sure if he'll go for that.

    xks201 - have you been tested ?
  11. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    No, but as I said I was diagnosed with metabolic acidosis. A d-lactate test is a specialty test it appears. Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea. If you look in a another gentleman's thread which I recently posted in in this sub form you will see exactly what your gut flora probably looks like. High amounts of lactic acid producing bacteria and low amounts of lactic acid utilizing bacteria (such as e coli). All this lactate hits the brain and bingo you have fatigue. Cows and livestock get it all the time but apparently the government doesn't recognize the common problem in humans like they do in livestock.

    So far every study I have found that appropriately measures d-lactate levels in CFS patients finds it high. That is amazing considering other studies on CFS do not always correlate like this does. It really isn't rocket science when you think about it. D-lactate is so incredibly neurotoxic and humans cannot metabolize it...and in us that have the stool tests lactic acid producing bacteria areshowing up as majority of the stool bacteria counts....hmmmm hmmm hm. Fibromyalgia patients are said to have high lactic acid levels...despite sitting around all day. HMMMM

    And my explanation for people who think a viral illness or infection triggered an infection of lactic acid producing bacteria... it is very possible the immune system allowed the overgrowth of these bacteria to reduce PH to kill an infection..be it parasitic, viral, etc. Just a theory but nonetheless if you have CFS you owe it to yourself to measure D-Lactate urine levels. Only urine levels are appropriate to measure from what I have read as they are the only accurate measure.
  12. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    I didn't dismiss it xks201. It's definiitely a possibility for my symptoms and definitely worth looking into.
    I can't find the other thread you refer to showig gut flora.

    I'd love to get my urine d-lactate urine levels measured. Does anyone know which lab does this ? I mentioned before our health care system does it but it looks like it is plasma.
  13. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Metametrix ion profile test is how I got my urinary d-lactate levels.
  14. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    GP, I have a study which states that it is useless to examine overgrowth of lactobacilli by the hydrogen breath test, as they cannot utilise the lactulose used in this test. I cannot get to it on screen anymore, for some reason, but I did keep a copy when I could access it. The study was called Lactobacilli and Acidosis in Children with Short Small Bowel.

    If you are going to have your d-lactate levels tested by urine, make sure that your specimen is taken in the late afternoon/early evening, as d-lactate rises during the day, and is at it's lowest first thing in the morning.
  15. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    My urine and saliva PH is very low , and I feel drugged when I eat yogurt, cheese or whey protein. My blood lactate dehydrogenase is high normal. I have heard citrate and phosphate can help you to get rid of lactic acid.
  16. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    That's interesting about he hydrogen/lactulose/lactobacilli Glynis. What about lactose. I also had asi test that checked for hydrogen production using lactose. It was also within normal limits.
  17. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Hi GP, I don't know about lactose, and have not read anything in regard to d-lactic levels/lactose. Sorry.
  18. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    It depends I mean most lactose has all the bacteria destroyed nowadays but if you get something like yoghurt with bacteria in it that will make you worse.
  19. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    If lactic-cid producing bacteria cause CFS symptoms, surely we could test this by eating only protein and fats (i.e. zero carbs) for a while and seeing if we feel any different?
  20. JohnK37

    JohnK37

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    Hello all,
    > A week ago i took 1 pill of gnc ultra 75 billion probiotics. I had extreme side effects from it. My mind felt as if it was racing fast and i could not concentrate. Afterwards i felt extremely depressed. It was not a normal depression, it felt like a chemical one. As well i had muscle spasms around my neck and my leg. 2 days after i drank a cup of yogurt and i had similar reactions again. It has been 6 days and the feelings are still lingering. I am having a hard time concentrating and my mind does not feel it is functioning properly. Is it possible that this is happening because of d-lactate acidosis? I had recently been diagnosed with h pylori bacteria and i had finished the therapy with the antibiotics. I was interested in using probiotics in order to further strain the helicobacter. I am wondering if this feeling from the probiotics will go away and if so does your company provide other probiotic strains that will not produce these side effects. What is your view on is problem and will it go away... Does it take time for the probiotics to leave your system or did the probiotics colonize leaving me with a further occurence of these side effects. As well, i feel better after i drink a half liter of water. Could it be that the good bacteria is fighting the bad bacteria and it is releasing toxins which is giving me these effects. If anyone could please help me i would greatly appreciate it.

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