Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Lack of chatter about the Ketogenic Diet

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by bsw, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. cb2

    cb2 Senior Member

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    Hi @Effi for me i am seeing that falling off the wagon is an emotional frustration thing- if that makes sense. and sometimes i eat what is easy..although steaming frozen veggies is easy- so it must be emotional binging- esp at nite.. last nite i just ate and ate until like 1 am. not fun really. but i seem to be stuck in this cycle
     
  2. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    What you say about eating and eating non stop does sound like it could be emotional binging. It's complicated sometimes to find out what the trigger is, whether it's emotional or just because of things you ate the day before. Have you tried keeping a food journal? Sometimes that helps to find out what the pattern is.
     
  3. evatious

    evatious

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    Sounds like a FODMAPS sensitivity. I can eat very small amounts of some FODMAPS but in any larger concentration it causes an IBS flare-up. Onions are one of the worst for most FODMAPS sensitive people.
     
  4. evatious

    evatious

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    Major cravings while in ketosis are often an electrolyte imbalance. You have to watch your electrolytes and up your water consumption as the diet is naturally diuretic.

    From what I've noticed, most ketogenic dieters (particularly when they start out) do a lot of prepping food for the week so they have ready portions pre-cooked and frozen or frozen in the correct amounts. They also eat the same things on repeat. It's boring but it makes things easier.

    The only thing I have frozen is bone broth in single serves and fresh fish in plastic bags.

    My day is nearly always:
    1) whey isolate shake (not ideal but gives me my protein)
    2) chicken or fish pan fried with mixed colourful salad (the salad components are 1-2 cups of leafy greens, 1/3 of a grated carrot, vinaigrette dressing)
    3) chicken, fish or beef with mixed colourful salad again.

    Variations to this might be an omelet with steamed vegetables and chopped herbs or occasionally coconut flour pancakes.

    Most weeks I cook a group of chicken or have slow cooked beef so I get several meals out of whatever I've cooked that lasts 2-3 days so I don't actually cook every day. Meat balls would be a 'fancy' recipe for me these days.

    The salad is the only time consuming thing and that is still comparatively simple compared to cooking a 'traditional' meal.
     
    cb2 likes this.
  5. cb2

    cb2 Senior Member

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    hi @Effi i have been logging my food everyday for over 400 days in my fitness pal. i am not sure if that counts as a food journal. i think for me the triggers are the isolation from this illness.. confusion as to who what and which dr to try of follow when no one has helped.. and frustration around watching my life dissolve to less. and when i have pain ( that really makes me want to reach for comfort foods. @ evatious.. i like your food plan it sounds simple. how big is the salad you make and eat?
     
  6. evatious

    evatious

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    It's usually 50-100grams of leafy greens, maybe a 1/3 or 1/2 a medium carrot (about 50grams and I try and get both purple and orange carrots) and a few times a week I add in half an avocado (between 70 and 110gms depending on the size.)

    I roast pumpkin and kumara and add in just a few pieces here and there (they are high in carbs so I just use small amounts.)

    It's as big a salad as I can actually eat (or that's what I aim for for micro nutrients.)

    I definitely feel better taking a probiotic too. It seems to make me able to absorb the nutrients better. When I went without the probiotic my skin was not so great and I felt rougher in general. I've just added the kefir back in to the diet so I'll see how that goes.
     
  7. cb2

    cb2 Senior Member

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    that sounds like a good salad..@evatious i hope to work more toward eating them. i have a friend that makes great salads but they always seem like so much work. i need to get a better scale so i can weight greens.
     
    evatious likes this.
  8. evatious

    evatious

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    Good scales make a difference and you do need to count gram macros for everything that goes in your mouth. Even seasoned ketoers do this (so they can work out where they can improve things or make adjustments based on their physical goals.)

    I also tend to buy pre-washed salad greens which works out fairly economical if I purchase largish bags that I can use up within a few days. I usually still wash and spin them, but at least I don't have much waste or have to fiddle around doing much trimming.

    My salads rarely have more than a few ingredients (although mixed leaves make the difference.)

    My lunch looked like this today:

    (Pre-cooked) Free Range Chicken Breast, 140 gm (cooked weight - roughly a whole small-medium size breast)
    Cos Lettuce 90 gm
    Purple Carrot, 50 gm
    Mixed Salad Leaves 40 gm
    Macadamia Nut Oil, 2 tsp
    Organic Apple Cider Vinegar, 2 tsp


    Total calories: 330
    Carbs: 11 (7 carbs are from the carrot)
    Protien: 41
    Fat: 11

    (My fat today looks like it will be a bit low so I might make hot chocolate made with a square or two of dark chocolate (70%+) and a splash of heavy organic cream and add that to dinner.)
     
  9. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    I can totally relate @cb2 ... It's so tough! I have no words of wisdom for this I'm afraid... Hang in there :hug:
     
  10. cb2

    cb2 Senior Member

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    @evatious do you feel better with the low carb or is it "paleo"? it seems easy, i need to get used to the salads I like the idea of macadamina nut oil, where do you get yours? @Effi : ) it's a process i guess. :)

    i recently went to see on old therapist ( i had treid out a couple new folks ..but they didnt seem to be able to keep up with my health/ dr thingsl) anyway.. hopefully her and i can work some on this food issue stuff.
     
    Effi likes this.
  11. evatious

    evatious

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    @cb2 It's definitely the keto. Or at least, keto proportions of [paleo] food in relation to my already extensive dietary limitations which have been in place since the beginning of the year.

    While I was just doing paleo I was STARVING, eating carbs (healthy ones) and putting on weight... Previously, paleo had been great when I tried it in the past. Not the case while hyperthyroid...

    The FODMAP avoidance is something I've discovered myself (it was/is definitely the main component of my IBS-D) and I had already seen a holistic GP in March who suggested cutting out all grains, seeds, nuts, legumes , nightshades and fruit - which I was already working towards.

    I've just tried reintroducing a couple of things with success (small amounts of strawberries and almonds) so it's nice to have a few more options. I'm pushing things to see how many carbs I can eat and still maintain ketosis. I'm fine up to around 35, but the lower you keep it, the more sure of staying in ketosis. Slipping out of ketosis sucks because the cravings come back for several days.

    I've just purchased a bunch more supplements but I'm keen to reduce down to a suitable multi vitamin at some point and just focus on things I definitely need (Vit D, magnesium and maybe a few others.) I feel that I was VERY malnourished from years of stress, illness and eating badly so I think my body is just going to take months to get to a reasonable level of nutrition.

    My main goal is good wholefoods nutrition to allow as much healing as possible from that approach rather than relying on speculative pill consumption :)

    It's so hard to find supportive practitioners who want to work *with* you. Good luck with your therapist!
     
  12. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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    I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding why you're doing keto in the first place if you introduce things like carrots and pumpkin. It's easier to not eat them.

    There's also a guy on youtube spreading false keto recipes using onions, bell peppers and tomatoes in his cooking. I know it's a matter of adding up carbs, but always being on the edge of slipping out of keto is really counterproductive.

    There are simple sugars in most protein shakes - exactly the kind you need to avoid.

    Just don't call it keto, call it edging on keto because you can tolerate 30+ grams of carbs per day. You're lucky, most people can't do that.

    Not all salads are the same, avoid iceberg because it has zero nutrition basically. Check for carbs on each type of salad you're eating.
     
  13. evatious

    evatious

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    My diet is severely restricted (due to IBS and significant autistic sensory issues.) Hence why I'm bringing back in some carby vegetables in small amounts. It's about micro nutrients, not just macros for me.

    I've never been on the edge of slipping out of keto but 50 grams is closer to what most people will tolerate. Some as high as a hundred. Under 20 will safely keep people in ketosis. That's based on Phinney & Volek's most recent work.

    My protein shake is my own recipe, whey isolate because that's what my stomach can handle, no artificial or added sugar. No added flavorings either.

    I don't make 'ketofied' recipes so have no interest in what other people present as keto on YouTube.

    I'm not 'edging on keto' but I'm still interested in where my carb limit lies. I don't need to do what works for other people, only what works for me. It has nothing to do with luck and is based on advice from my nutritionist, endocrinologist and GP.

    I track everything that goes in my mouth, so know exactly the nutritional value of my salads. I rarely use iceberg lettuce .
     
    cb2 likes this.
  14. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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    You should have explicitly mentioned those things before. Otherwise it can mislead people.

    What I am saying is it was bad advice since you didn't mention crucial details. Also, this being a me/cfs forum, the carb tolerance will probably be low since a lot of people here are unfortunately bed bound.

    This is not ketogains.

    Leaving out crucial details in a place where people might try the things you say out of pure desperation is very bad.

    Perhaps now is the time you mention how your carb tolerance has increased with exercise - something a lot of people here simply can not do.

    Every time you think I'm being harsh, remember what this forum is about.

    By lucky, I meant your body can adapt to keto under a higher carb presence than other people. The data you talk about does NOT apply to me/cfs. I don't know of any study that correlates, say low glutathione and keto diets or unidentified chronic viral infections and keto. I do know EBV uses fat to shield itself.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015
  15. evatious

    evatious

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    I'm just here conversing about ketogenic diets and my experience with them. Hence the thread title, which I find had a conversational bent. I'm always happy to clarify the 'what' and the 'why' of my approach.

    I remember what this forum is about, hence why I joined to participate. As in one of my first posts in the thread, I am trying a ketogenic diet out of desperation. I may be going through a good patch now but a few months ago I was barely able to move. Maybe that will change again soon. For now, things are going well.

    I participate in a way that I can. I'm unlikely to get to the point where I have the capacity to post more details or think as you do. But as I said, I'm always happy to clarify my approach.
     
    ahmo likes this.
  16. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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  17. Bdeep86

    Bdeep86 Senior Member

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    Ive been trying keto for the past few weeks, had to break it up a couple times. I'm having trouble getting into the adaption phase. My body is such a mess that I think something is at play holding me back from reaching adaption and its pretty unpleasant. I am cutting the coffee this week to see if that makes a difference.
     
  18. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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    What is it? Food cravings? Fatigue? Being dizzy? Can you do a low carb diet generally or is it just the high fat part that is unpleasant? I went through some sugar withdrawal symptoms that I would call abnormal in intensity, but then again, I don't know what the norm is.
     
  19. Bdeep86

    Bdeep86 Senior Member

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    @ZudZud at first my body dumped some iron, then yeah general confusion and dizzyness that persist even after supplementing electrolytes. I even started putting on some water weight after a week. I generally eat pretty low carb I would say to begin with. I'm really not sure why body body just doesn't want to seem to kick over. I would take carb cravings as a good sign, for some reason my body just sin't entering the adaption phase. I'm going to give it a few more days without coffee to see if that makes a difference, if not I may have to revisit this.
     
  20. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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    @Bdeep86, yes, since you've gained water weight and you're still craving, it's safe to say you're not adapted - I lost weight very fast in the beginning, but going by bro-science it was probably water weight.

    I can and do use tea and coconut oil & butter coffee now (did not in the beginning, had a lot of body fat anyway), but I had to give up a very unhealthy energy drink addiction - it's not only the sugar, the sweeteners can get you too, some people had to give up caffeine because of the diuretic properties & mineral loss. IIRC I stayed away from caffeine before adapting, but it was mostly because I felt like crap from before, had nothing to do with any diet, I just wanted to sleep better, didn't figure it would help.

    I've had some liver problems for the past 10 years, so adding some antioxidants helped me adapt, I used milk thistle, vitamin C + I'm a green tea drinker, it helped a lot, I actually felt pressure/things coming out of my liver (but my gallbladder sometimes gets a bit clogged so I kind of feel it). Fortunately antioxidants are cheaper to try than some methylation protocols.

    My newfound keto lightheadedness seems to go away with salt and bone broth, obviously, but I had some luck with things like cooked frozen spinach+mushrooms or some meats like pork tenderloin or beef liver, I can only describe the effect as a strong multivitamin, but they have to be very fresh. HTH.
     

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