The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Lack of chatter about the Ketogenic Diet

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by bsw, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I appreciate that you don't have problems with these foods, and I assume other prebiotic-sensitive ME/CFS patients probably will not either; but it doesn't really make sense why prebiotics within foods should cause no issues, but when the same prebiotics are taken in pure form, this does trigger problems.

    If you take leeks for example, these contain 3 to 10% inulin (ref: here). A couple of large leeks weighs around 400 grams, so if you were to eat two leeks, you would be getting 12 to 40 grams of inulin.

    That's quite a bit of inulin, probably more than you would take if you were supplementing with pure inulin power. I take inulin daily, and usually take 2 heaped teaspoons of pure inulin power, which is around 10 grams.


    One explanation might be that pure inulin powder is more accessible to the gut bacteria than inulin found in food items. However, this is just guess. The whole thing seems a bit of a mystery.
     
  2. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Well I don't ever do that. That sounds remarkably like a straw man technique on your own part, something which, by the way, I was in no way attempting to do. Let's just drop this fruitless exchange.
     
  3. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Or maybe the stuff in food becomes available more slowly. I agree it is a bit of a mystery.
     
  4. Bdeep86

    Bdeep86 Senior Member

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    @bsw do you feel you have peaked with this diet or do you continue to see improvements?
     
  5. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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    I started fasting, went into low carb and now doing a keto-like diet (because I'm not sure my fat intake is still there). I don't have everything figured out yet, but I had a few awesome days on it. You need to manage your minerals, iron and water intake, just check "keto flu" on reddit and /r/keto in general. Buy good butter, count all carbs, make beef stock, add salt to things. I think I ate more broccoli in the past few weeks than in the previous years.

    Check warnings about kidneys, diabetes, falling blood pressure, constipation, total lack of appetite and whatnot, the info is out there.

    I'm getting the distinct impression that insulin was making me foggy. Candida is fading away.

    Another upside, since I eat very little now, I get to snack on expensive cheese.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
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  6. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    now that's the life! :lol:
     
  7. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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    Also, re: probiotics, you can try to make a long-fermented yogurt (under 24 hours, but still probably more than 10 hours) and then strain the whey. This allows the lactose to be digested by the culture and the remaining whey carries a lot of it out as well, it's low carb & high fat - try to start with quality milk. I never made kefir. Some keto-ers are adding freshly ground flax or other fiber sources to their diet.
     
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  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have just been looking at the reddit.com ketogenic diet FAQ.

    I found interesting that the FAQ said: net carbs in food = the carbs in grams minus the fiber in grams.
     
  9. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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    This touches on ATP, mitochondria and ketones, interesting bits at 22:15


    If you have the time, watch it all.

    I didn't know it takes a lot of ATP to make the sodium-potassium pumps work - and I've had potassium issues in the past after going on methylation supplements.
     
    ahmo likes this.
  10. evatious

    evatious

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    I've been following a ketogenic diet for 8 weeks and it has been great. I've gone from being unable to walk down the road a few months ago to building up to going to the gym every second day. I have also cut out all fodmaps and autoimmune trigger foods - which leaves me with any kind of meat and mostly above-ground vegetables.

    I'm never hungry and can easily fast for a full day with no issues. I do intermittent fasting in a 16/8 eating pattern. The fasting was something I slipped into very easily, not something I set out to do.

    I do a version of keto that is for fat loss whilst retaining lean body mass which means adequate protein, moderate fat (because I'm using up body fat) and under 20 grams of carbs. I'm adjusting the carbs as I go to count net carbs rather than total.

    Being in ketosis is based on low carb consumption (under 50 grams for most people) and not high fat. The high fat version of keto is medical (i.e. for epileptic seizure control) or maintenance ketosis where you need that fat for fuel.
     
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  11. ZudZud

    ZudZud

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    Welcome evatious!

    I'm really interested about the way you transitioned into going to the gym (since it always depletes my energy) and what, if any, supplements are you using?
     
  12. evatious

    evatious

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    Hi ZudZud!

    I had joined my local gym weeks before I jumped straight (cold turkey) into keto. I was doing a whole foods paleo diet for most of this year so had already cut out most processed/refined carbs.

    It was really rough to start at the gym. I think I managed once a week for a few weeks, then aimed for twice a week, then 3, and now every second day which I manage most weeks. My aim is to get to 5 times a week and build more strength once the weight comes off. I’ve lost about 10 kilos so far and have settled into a 1 kg per week weight loss (which is good and sustainable.)

    I worked out a plan with a trainer at my gym to start with, telling her about all my health problems and what I wanted to achieve (for me that was weight (fat) loss, general fitness, addressing an AC joint issue and muscle wastage from Graves’ Disease.)

    I started on a 10 min stationary bike and a few other free weights and weight machines. I’ve worked up to 20 minutes on the bike at higher intensity and I’ve stepped up the weights and added in a few variations. I still have a couple of issues strength-wise (where I don’t seem to be improving as fast as other areas.) If I miss a session, I really feel like it puts me back disproportionately.

    The supplements I take currently are
    Selenium
    CoenzymeQ10
    Magnesium
    Biotin
    Vit D (at a high dose)
    Zinc
    Collagen
    L Glutamine

    I also drink water with himalayan salt and a tiny pinch of cream of tartar several times a day.

    (I’ve checked with my endocrinologist about the diet and supplements and he’s fine with both - although I suspect he thinks it’s overkill. Most of these supplements are ones I’m taking with Graves’ Disease and auto immune conditions in mind.)

    I’m probably going to be adding in a good probiotic (in capsule form) as this seems to make a big difference to how I do on the diet. I’ve kept in a dairy based kefir for now but want to try eliminating dairy completely.

    These are things I’m contemplating adding in: Acetyl L Carnitine with ALA, Resveratrol, Vit B according to my methylation profile (which I'm still getting my head around) and GABA
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2015
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  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Great to hear about your good results.

    What made you decide to try the ketogenic diet for ME/CFS, may I ask? This diet does not seem to be one of the standard treatments that ME/CFS patients try.



    Since either fat or carbs supply your energy, if you cut down on carbs, wouldn't you need to increase your fat intake, just in order to supply your energy needs, thereby leading to a high fat diet?
     
  14. evatious

    evatious

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    It was more desperation than anything to be honest. I decided to chance it and after getting into it, it seemed to reduce many of my symptoms which led to further experiments reducing fodmaps and other possible inflammatory foods (which my Holistic GP had suggested cutting out in March.) Making Keto changes to that existing diet has made it much easier to follow and I don't have cravings etc which were really holding me back and making everything else worse.

    It really depends on the state of your body, but it's the low carb part which induces ketosis. You do need to have adequate fat for your body's needs. Currently I get about half of my energy needs from body fat so my fat intake varies between 50-70 grams per day. You need to meet a certain amount that is based on lean body mass (mine is around 50gm.) If I get to the point of maintenance or more energy expenditure, my macros will change to meet those different goals and my fat intake will go up. It might double (or more.)

    I still eat loads of vegetables in my under 20grams of carbs and get plenty of fat just eating lean cuts, fish and poultry with any fat I cook them with. I still have room for dressings and mayo etc. but it's not high fat at this stage.
     
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @evatious do you have a reference for your diet plan? I want to use up some body fat, seem to be able to tolerate more protein than in the past. I'm now on 5:2 fast diet, but am fasting every other day, as things weren't moving. Congrats on your success!
     
  16. evatious

    evatious

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    Hi ahmo, thanks, it's early days yet but I'm keen to keep at it for the foreseeable future. I'll readdress the diet when (if) I get to my goal weight and fitness.

    The plan I follow is part of the ketogenic dieters group on facebook but depending on your body fat percentage the ketogains group might be a better fit. They are sister groups but the ketogains group is more suitable if you are under 25% body fat. The ketogains group has more of a focus on athletic performance too.

    The ketogenic dieters group is very strict and no nonsense but some people get upset at that kind of approach.
     
  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Is there a non-FB site? I don't have a big problem, but have put on 5kg/10+lb this year, subsequent to my high Omega-6 intake. My need has now decreased, thankfully. for the first 3 years on high-fat GAPS diet I gained only the amount of weight I needed to overcome my prior weight loss, then remained stable. Even when I was hypothyroid. But this year has been an unpleasant surprise, and I want to nail it ASAP. Sometimes I can do High Intensity exercise 3-4/week, but not always, very sedentary. I'm on the 5:2 forum, maybe I'll just l/u ketogenic there, there's bound to be some others doing this. Thanks.
     
  18. evatious

    evatious

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  19. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Excellent. thanks:)
     
  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Insulin resistance is something that MUST be addressed. My husband latest blood test showed fasting glucose at 87,0 and insulin 19,8, so his body is struggling to keep glucose at low levels.

    Since he doesn't seem to be able to go on a sugar-free diet right now, I am trying to fix his problems one at a time. He just had a great gain by eating 2 eggs at dinner on a daily basis. Working on his choline deficiency made him pain free :balloons:

    As for me, if I eat too little carbs I get low serotonin just like
    but then I do not need to loose weight and I do not have insulin resistance, so there is no clinical need for me to go into low carb or ketosis to fix such issues. BTW I am also benefitting from fixing low choline. Brainfog is gone now for a while, except for when I try to fix hormonal issues.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
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