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Hunting down the cause of ME/CFS & other challenging disorders - Lipkin in London
In a talk to patients in London on 3rd September, Dr. W. Ian Lipkin described the extraordinary lengths he and his team are prepared to go to in order to track down the source of an illness, with examples ranging from autism to the strange case of Kawasaki disease.
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L-Glutathione... could it actually work??

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Beyond, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HOW TO INDUCE SUBACUTE COMBINED DEGENERATION and enlarged MCV in humans in 3 months or less. The hazards of glutathione.

    Causing SCD and macrocytic anemia was NEVER our intention, our intention was to induce heakth benefits from glutathione or precursors as claimed these days amongst certain practitioners. This is just how it turned out, 180 degrees from what we expected.

    Individual results will vary but in an N=10 trial, 100% of subjects had the results to varying degrees, perhaps as they used several different precursor combos or infusions. The subjects were all successful with adb12, mb12 and Metafolin. Those not in this group that had never relieved the deficiency symptoms claimed pain relief from the glutathione as their nerves were damaged further into numbness.

    Method 1 - feed subjects 1 gram of l-glutamine and 600mg of time release NAC twice a day for duration (or frequent glutathione infusions, or NAC or whey in some). In 3 hours after first dose most of available b12 in the body will be flushed out in the urine. Then within the next few hours methylfolate is expelled from the cells via the "methyl trap".

    Widespread body, muscle and joint, inflammation and pain start within hours and gets worse by the day. This is responsive to NSAIDS generally. Folate deficiency symptoms appear the first day, mb12 deficiency symptoms in several days and adb12 deficiency symptoms - 3 months or so.

    Over the next days and weeks, CPR heads for the roof. Hypersensitivity of all sorts starts, MCS, hyper-immune response, hypersensitivity in nerves, etc. In 3 days angular cheilitis starts up in those who are prone to it. In 2 more days IBS starts. At about the same time acne type lesions start up on scalp and face and often infected follicles in other body areas. Oral lesions usually follow. By six weeks centrally mediated numbness and pain of feet and legs, hands, arms, shoulders etc are all spreading and worsening.

    Dr Jeckyl leaves the house and is replaced with Mr Hyde for the duration. Sleep disorders increase. In 3 months macrocytosis is obvious, MCV > 100. MS will be dramatically worsened. If the person is also extremely low on l-carnitine and/or adb12 Parkinson's like symptoms may worsen explosively.

    Then if l-carnitine is given the subject may go absolutely nuts and a walkthrough of the extreme FFF characteristics of the limbic system will be demonstrated in usually the same order each time, dependent upon rising or falling l-carnitine level.

    Reversal, if SCD is not allowed to go too far is multiple 15mg doses of Metafolin (Deplin) and three 50mg mb12 doses or 10mg SC injections of SUITABLE 5 star mecbl until healed for at least a year, and of adcbl the first few days. On day 3 need for potassium will increase by 2000-3000mg to avoid dramatic sudden onset of Hypokalemia symptoms when backlogged healing starts up. Also on day 3 Metafolin dosage needs increase.

    In about a month inflammation will be largely gone if all cofactors are present that are needed, CRP <=1.0, multitudes of pains will be fading. Only the remyelination and MCV take about 9 months to correct to the extent that they can but trail on for years as it is an ongoing equilibrium that is either getting better or worse.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2013
  3. caledonia

    caledonia

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    It's best to raise glutathione via methylation treatment, vs. trying to supplement directly. Methylation treatment will also help sleep.
     
  4. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I have a friend who has Hashimotos and some depression. She does well on S-acetyl glutathione under doctor's care. Best of luck to you!
     
  5. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Yeah I know. This is actually for my leaky gut/intestinal inflammation, but if I feel other benefits, cool. And I am the one that screened the forums searching for people that got refreshing sleep from methylation, and found that it defintely helps sleep. But my intestinal problems are too obvious to not treat them first.
     
  6. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    @Freddd where in the world did you find that?? I´ve seen people here taking NAC or Glutamine without imploding.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Beyond,

    That is the result of a trial a group of us ran. Here is one thing to know. Each and every person doing the trial had successfully started healing with the Active B12 protocol. The had gotten out of methyltrap, they had no more partial methylation block and no more partial ATP block. It my own personal experience and 9 others. Some participants took glutathione infusions and others took precursor groups or whey. Nobody in that group was taking only NAC. That comes from reports of NAC "detox" with the same symptoms as glutathione: detox. Also, Deplin, pure Metafolin "is generally well tolerated and has no side effects different from placebo". Cerefolin with NAC has a whole block of "side effects" which are not present for Metafolin, those of NAC "detox" which are those of methyltrap, b12 and folate deficiency symptoms. Further for those with enough b12 in their body, glutathione makes the urine run pink for a few hours as it flushes all active b12 from the body starting methyltrap in the same several hours.

    So somebody with partial methylation block or methyltrap will not have any symptoms, they already have them, and may even feel a reduction of nerve pain, I did, until the kept going all the way to numb (more damaged). Somebody who find methylation and ATP uncomfortable will feel better with glutathione. There is probably some dose, one that produces "natural" levels of glutathione, that might help and not be damaging.

    If you know somebody who would like to fund a suitable controlled study I would love to reproduce the results for them, BUT NOT WITH ME doing it. I can't take any more damage. I still carry damage from that trial. I wonder how many volunteers we would get for possible brain damage if it was made known in the informed consent.. The design would have to be for a short run demonstrating the flushing of b12 from the body and the entry into methyltrap.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  8. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    I've often wondered if there is a group of people with some kind of infection, or something, that both uses up a lot of glutathione and limits it's production(regardless of how much b12/mfolate taken), and therefore might benefit from the right dose of glutathione or precursors.
     
  9. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    That´s interesting, your experience (and also worrying). So in your opinion @Freddd "detox" as we know it in the context of methylation is always some kind of defficiency and NOT genuine detoxing?

    @Adster well, clearly Fred and the other 9 persons were not among these people :confused:
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adster,

    I'm sure there are other factors as well. One of the things about all 10 people, including me, the rate of illness, inflammation and infections after healing was well established, and mostly from 1-4 years after starting, was very low. Most of us had little or no sickness or infections since a few months in. All the infected follicles I used to have were gone. My CRP went to <=1.0 (test limit). No more asthma meds, no more allergy meds, no more MCS, no more ibuprofen (down from 2400mg/day) and a whole lot more, 0-2 or 3 periodic paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms only so when allergies, asthma, MCS and dozens more came back like gangbusters it was pretty obvious in some ways. However, somebody who hadn't turned healing on and still had partial methylation block and/or methyltrap and/or partial ATP block and who knows what infections and blocked biochemical pathways, who knows how things might be different.
     
    Meggie likes this.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Beyond,

    NEVER say ALWAYS. Most of the time the symptoms that specifically fit combinations of symptoms under the specific circumstances detailed in the decision tree and symptoms list, very often respond to the specified nutrients. If "genuine detoxing" exists, it doesn't fit the same description as low potassium and/or low l-methylfolate. When I first came to this site I was astounded with the quantity of people in perpetual "detox". It led to the whole paradoxical folate insufficiency/deficiency business and emphasized the shear quantity of induced low potassium, which I had known about before I ever tried MeCbl from reading research.
     
  12. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Forgive me if I'm not explaining this well...

    Rather than thinking about a scenario where "healing can be turned on", eventually, by treating a b12/methylation problem, I'm thinking more about times where perhaps healing will never be able to be turned on, because something else is permanently broken, and this condition puts a huge, constant strain on methylation/glutathione etc. So, not a blockage as such.

    In this case, perhaps the b12 etc can be supportive but never curative. Like eating well supports any illness, for example. Maybe these are cases where glutathione or precursors are useful, in the right doses?
     
    celeste likes this.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adster,

    It would have to be a co morbid condition. Much, not all, of the damage caused by these deficiencies can improve at least. Of unrelated conditions only neurological damage appears to heal across multiple causes. I have no idea what can prevent methylation from starting up that is damage. It can deadlock on any number of other less common vitamins and nutrients. I have difficulty imagining some kind of damage that prevents two totally life dependent items from operating, methylation and ATP. There are things that are never going to heal or improve at any present degree of knowledge. There are some drugs that are anti-folates or anti-cobalamins. Glutathione appears to hit as hard as any of the chemo drugs in that category. But that is dose related almost certainly. I don't know how much glutathione a person normally has in their body. It is said that a person has a total of 2.5 to 5 mg. of b12 in their body. That would take a maximum of 1.25mg of glutathione to wipe out 100% of that if it were accessible. So I don't know what a safe level is.

    There are lots of things unrelated to b12 etc that won't be healed by them so I expect that it would be supporting of any deficiency caused symptoms. All in all there are over 600 different reactions that lack of b12 hinders. At the right dose, who knows.
     
  14. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    I've taken NAC three times per day for a couple years now without any side effects. It's the main reason I can sleep well.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  15. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Interesting, I am finding similar effects too with glutathione.
    Leaky gut and GI inflammation are a huge problem for me too. Methylation protocol has helped a little bit but taking oral glutathione seems to make a remarkable difference.

    Not all glutathione brands works the same, at least for me. Jarrows reduced glutathione seems to have a positive anti-inflammatory effect on my gut which is almost immediate (~1hr after taking the pill).

    @Beyond I would be curious to know if you have continued taking glutathione, which form, which dosage and how did it work for you. Did it help the healing? Or does it work just as a temporary symptom reliever?

    Thanks
     
    Beyond likes this.
  16. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    I tried exactly that one, the Jarrow one. At the time I did not feel digestive benefits but after taking it, propolis, seacure etc for some months now I can eat everything I want with digestive enzymes and hcl pepsin.

    I was taking 1000 mgs per night.

    I researched the topic a lot and the correct oral glutathione is critical to heal any gut inflammatory condition, although of course you can cure without it, as long as whatever you do boosts intestinal glutathione which is always depressed if you are inflammed. There are even studies proving that oral glutathione helps IBD (colitis, crohn´s...).
     
  17. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Interesting, thanks.
    Did you notice side effects?
     

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