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L-form bacteria found in ALL patients with CFS

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Athene, Jun 3, 2011.

  1. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Very interesting article about the history of L-forms & how it causes chronic
    diseases. Some snippets below but much larger article at
    http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/18/history/

    In 1941, German scientist Emmy Klieneberger-Nobel began to study the L form at
    the Lister Institute in England. A meticulous lab worker, Klieneberger-Nobel,
    perfected the method of growing the pathogens on serum (blood) agar.

    After growing colonies of the bacterium Streptobacillus monliforme she confirmed
    that several of the pathogens in her Petri dish did indeed lack cell walls. She
    named the wall-less variants L-forms after the Lister Institute where she
    worked. In the years that followed she studied other species of L-forms and
    published several papers describing their characteristics and behavior. She once
    said that "the L-form is an entity of its own as different from bacteria as the
    tadpole from the frog."

    Mattman studied patients with Tuberculosis and found that in every patient
    tested, the blood was saturated with a variety of L-forms.

    She identified two different species of L-form bacteria in patients with
    Parkinson's Disease. The L- form species of Borrellia burgdoferi was detected in
    patients with Lyme disease. She cultured serum from forty patients with multiple
    sclerosis and found a different species of the borrelia L-form present in her
    samples. Soon after, she detected Chlamydia pneumonia in the blood of patients
    who had suffered a pulmonary thrombosis. She also found bacteria that resembled
    M. tuberculosis in the blood of patients with the lung disease sarcoidosis.

    In the end, Mattman detected dozens of species of L-form bacteria and was able
    to culture these wall-less forms of bacteria from the blood samples of patients
    with over 20 incurable illnesses. She published numerous papers throughout her
    career and in authored an entire medical textbook in which she details her
    findings.

    A team of researchers and doctors in the United Kingdom are currently studying
    the L-form in patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS). The microbiology
    team, lead by CFS clinician Dr. Andy Wright has detected L-forms in every single
    one of the CFS patients they have tested (about 600 to date).

    Wright has developed a method of taking pinprick blood (usually from the ear)
    and allowing it to degrade for 6-36 hours. The process causes the L-form
    bacteria to break out of the cells and they can subsequently be observed with a
    dark field microscope. The bacteria can be stained with fluorescent dye. If the
    L-forms are alive they will stain green, while dying/dead L-forms stain orange.
    Wright has created several videos of L-forms under the microscope in which the
    pathogens can be seen quite clearly.

    In the videos, the bacteria often lengthen into long filamental forms that look
    thin and snakelike. They can be seen weaving in between infected cells.
    Sometimes "giant" L-forms, which are more rectangular in shape, begin to grow
    inside the cells.

    Danish researcher Marie Kroun has also taken several videos of L-form bacteria
    under a high-resolution microscope.

    (Wright & Kroun were both Lyme sufferers...) Lida Mattman is one of the few
    scientists who figured out how to cultivate spiros in test tubes & published the
    book Stealth Pathogens - sadly she has now passed away..
    wastwater and snowathlete like this.
  2. ramakentesh

    ramakentesh Senior Member

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    the journals referenced arent very reputable. When I read it in New England then Ill believe it.
  3. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    The paragraph about Dr Andy Wright makes it sound like a proper microbiology research team and not just him looking at his own patients in a clinical setting. There is no formal "team of researchers and doctors" working with him at the moment and doing this in any sort of organised, reputable research or academic setting, is there?

    Although I have a lot of respect for Andy Wright some patients find the dark cell microscopy methods he uses questionable and he has problems with the GMC right now.
  4. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Ramakentesh,
    I agree that those involved with the Marshall protocol are not reputable. But the cardiology department at the Royal Brompton hospital is the most distinguished and respected in Europe.

    UKXMRV,
    In trouble with the GMC, eh? Like Sarah Myhill.
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    are these l-form bacteria co-infections or causes of cfs/me and if a co-infections are they worth treating??

    cheers!!!
  6. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi heapsreal,

    I have borrelia and chalamydia pneumoniae and mycoplasma which I am treating with combined antibiotics. They all have the quality of very easily becoming antibiotic resistant. Syphilis is the best known form of bacteria without a cell wall, many strains of which are now practically impossible to eradicate with antibiotics. One of the big questions is whether these bacteria take on this form as their way of surviving an antibiotic onslaught, which would mean that using antibiotic treatment would not work. However, nearly all Lyme disease doctors say that seven out of ten patients DO make a full recovery eventually. The conclusion is, I don't know yet but my fingers are crossed!

    So the short answer is, nobody knows if these infections are the cause of CFS, or if they are co-infections. What I can tell you is that borrelia causes exactly the same symptoms as CFS, down to the last detail. I've asked all over this forum and all over several Lyme disease forums, and nobody so far has been able to name one single symptom or even blood test or other result which definitively distinguishes one from the other (other than the actual borrelia antibody test, which is notoriously unreliable) ad the presence of erythema migrans rash, which at least 50 percent of Lyme disease sufferers never have.
  7. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting. I think the big question is how many of the healthy controls can he find it in? I think about 1/5 (give or take) of all healthy people in the west have antibodies for Borrelia, so if he finds the spirochete like structures in around a fifth of healthy controls, and is able to do a blinded test, and sort out which is what for the most part, then I think we have something to work on...
  8. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I hope that Dr Wright manages to deal with the GMC and it doesn't go on and on as it did with Dr Myhill. I'm grateful for any doctors who work in this area,
  9. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    Hi Redo,
    from where do you have these numbers- 1/5 of healthy people have antibodies to borrellia? Could you post some source, please?
  10. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    Redo makes a good point - and you can extend that to any (co-)infection. Most people at some point in their life come into contact with m./c. pneumoniae, EBV and most other viruses that can cause chronic infections. The question is why the healthy controls do not get sick and it probably has to do with a functioning metabolism/digestion/immune system. While probably quite a few people need targeted antiviral drugs (instead of anti-depressants), the long-term goal needs to be to get the body to fight those pathogens off. I think that therapies like gcmaf, other immune-stimulating drugs and immune-stimulating supplements need to be further studied and take over treatment. Strong serum positives for certain viral infections might be a good initial target for AVs and ARVs, but slight serum positives are questionable as a lot of the healthy controls exhibit those as well. If the L-forms will hold up and get the attention of a broader audience it would be definitely interesting to know how many healthy controls will exhibit those as well in similar quantity.
  11. liquid sky

    liquid sky Senior Member

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    There are 2 kinds of antibody tests, one for IgG and another for IgM. IgM is considered a current infection and IgG is evidence of a past exposure/infection. Of course, with most medical tests, things are not so clear. With borrellia, most lyme literate physicians will treat either type of antibodies.
  12. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I am 9 weeks into an antiobiotic protocol for Chlamydia Pneumonia, 9 weeks Doxycycline 200 mg daily and last week Monday, Wednesday and Friday 250 mg Azithromycin. I intend to carry on until I can up the Azithro to 500 mg MWF and later add in pulses of Tinidazole. Basically I am going to see what happens as I don't have any evidence I am actually affected, its just I have so many symptoms of it.

    Already my sleep is hugely improved, practically every night I sleep through from 11 ish to 5.30 something I haven't been able to do for well over 15 years so this in itself is a big help. Also I notice my brain is much sharper, I sort of can see things that are happening around me quite clearly and also my memory from stuff way back is returning.

    It is encouraging but I have also had periods since starting the protocol of being flat on my back with exhaustion, but this is to be expected. I am also taking NAC because this is supposed to help to break down the cell ways to release the bacteria.

    I had a test 2 weeks ago for a full viral panel, also Chlamedyia and Strepptacocci because of permanent problems with my throat. I don't expect the tests to be positive because I was on antibiotics at that time and have read its highly likely one won't get an antibody response especially with the Chlamdyia. Basically I see it as wait and see.

    I have to admit I have ordered the antibiotics myself over the Net but hopefully from a reputable site. I had a full blood panel done before starting the treatment and will ask my GP to do this for me say every 6 months or before if I had any really worrying symptoms.
    Wayne likes this.
  13. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi Bertiedog,
    That is the protocol that I was prescribed for my Lyme by my Lyme doctor, except he went straight into 500mg of azithro. It is a wonderful drug against Lyme and many co infections but only works if you can get tissue saturation up to the relevant level - for which you need 500mg.
    Your sleep improvement is also one fo the first things I also notived improving drastically.
    My Lyme doctor said that the really heavy tiredness happens mostly when your liver is having a hard time dealing with the drugs and clearing out the debris of dead bacteria. He got me do do a 30 day liver cleaning with milk thistle to help this - I have just finished it and I am still not sure if it has really done anything, but I thought I'd mention it to you!
    Finally, for breaking down the cell walls, the thing I was prescribed is a herb called artemisia. Many antibiotics encourage the borrelia to go into their cystic form to resist antibiotics, so when you start treatment this is essential to make sure it really eradicates the infection rather then just sending it into hiding. If you want to take this you can PM me and I'll tell you the dosage. I have read that metronidazole also kills the cystic form, or at least prevents them going into this form, but I don't know anything about the dosage or combining it with other antibiotics.
    Finally, my Lyme doc made me have a full liver function blood test panel every 4 weeks on this regime. He also made me get an ECG done at the same interval, as these antibiotics can occasionally lengthen the QT interval (i.e. dangerous heart arrhythmia).

    I find the one-in-five people have borrelia antibodies statistic pretty astonishing. Borrelia antibodies are often not even present in people who have unmistakeable Lyme symptoms, as the modus operandi of this spirochete is to penetrate the immune system and interfere with the reproduction of antibodies to itself (and some other infectins). So this just doesn't seem logical to me.
  14. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi Athena

    I don't think my problem is borrelia because I had a detailed ELISA test done in Germany a few years ago on the different strains and it was completely negative whereas when I had a similar test done on heavy metals my immune system reacted strongly to mercury and nickel, both having been confirmed with other tests as being a problem in the past for me. I hadn't been on any antibiotics at all when I had the test done.


    The protocol I am using is Dr Wheldons and Dr Strattonns on www.cpn.org. They believe it is better to go slow and gradually build up so you can keep on and not get too much of a response. It has helped many people with MS and some with CFS but not sure of actual figures.

    Actually the milk thistle is contraindicated on this protocol because it seemed to block the effect of some of the antiobitocs used, I cannot remember which one. There was study done which supported this finding and is quoted somewhere on the site.

    I am interested in the artemisa herb and wonder if you would PM the dose you use. I have taken Wormwood many times without ill effects, I just have to be very careful with any drug or herb which is detoxified by the P450 system because they can block the effect of my adrenal and thyroid meds which then of course makes me very ill. This is the reason I cannot tolerate activated charcoal which is recommended on the Cpn site for helping with porphoryia. I tried it for a few days and was so bad couldn't get off the sofa. Checked my temperature which was very low so I knew what was happening. Naturally I stopped it and the next day I was fine.

    It does limit what I can take.

    Yes Metro and Tinidazole do the actual killing in this regime whereas Doxy and Azith just stop the bugs replicating and it is hoped some die in the process. The idea is you get the load down as much as possible with about 3 or 4 months of the Doxy and Azith and then try just one day of Metro or Tini to see how one feels. Usually one is then advised to wait a few weeks because reactions can carry on. It does seem well thought out and safer than a lot of drugs that are used in this illness and well worth a trial.
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    i have taken flagyl/metro before with no bad reaction, is this a sign that borrelia isnt present? I have also had improvement with tetracycline type antibiotics but with no lasting improvements and have also used azithromycin with no noticable effect either way. I was tested for myco and borrelia and tested neg, cant remember if i was tested for chl pnue will have to check with my doc on that one. I have heard that testing for these bacterial infections isnt accurate and its just as good to do an antibiotic trial. I did 12-18 months on doxy and then myco and did get a die off reaction from both and then had some improvement but then platued. Since doing all this i have tested positive to ebv/cmv and responded to av's so maybe since i have this viral load down maybe another trial of abx might help????
  16. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    Metro and tini has killing effect on cpn and borrellia only when taken in combination with other atb (e.g. tetracycline or macrolide). So if you did not see any effect from metro alone it does not mean anything.

    Milk thistle is supposed to lower effect of metronidazole by 30%.
  17. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi,

    Thanks for the info on milk thistle and metronidazle, Lala. Do you know if it has an effect like this on any other antibiotics?

    Also heapsreal, I can echo what Lala has said that getting no negative reaction from metronidazole doesn't mean no Lyme. I have no noteworthy effects from it but I definitely have Lyme.

    Bertiedog,
    The ELISA test only gives a reliable result if you have it done exactly 6 weeks after getting bitten by the guilty tick. This means that, for nearly everyone, it is about as useful as walking into the local supermarket and asking the cashier "Hey, do you reckon I've got Lyme disease?" You need a western blot done by a reliable lab and a doctor who knows how to interpret the bands which are relevant to the area of the world where you were most likely bitten. The only place I know of in Europe that can do this properly is the BCA clinic in Augsburg, Germany.
    Also, I think your approach of building up antibiotic doses gradually sounds like a way to create antibiotic resistance. I understand that you want to avoid getting a herx reaction, but if you get your detox nutritional supplements in place in advance you are normally OK. My Lyme doctor adn GP drum into me how vital it is to maintain the required tissue saturation at all times to avoid developing unwanted resistant guests, not only the bacteria you are trying to target but also some other nasties in the gut, for instance.
    The latest Burrascano document on Lyme (downloadable from Ilads website) talks about tissue saturation and dosages, so I'd double check what I'm saying there if I were you. He's generally regarded as the God of Lyme disease so I reckon you can rely on what he says.
  18. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    I do not know about milk thistle and other antibiotics, but I guess it is possible because milk thistle improves liver functions, so the liver can degrade atb more faster. I am taking one capsule of milk thistle daily at least two hours away from atb for a while, but I am going to stop as you reminded me we do not know certainly it is ok.
  19. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    maybe i got no reaction from the flagyl as i had previosly beaten what bacteria i had with doxy. I thinking more of mycoplasma or chlamydia pneumonia as these are easily picked up and possibly mistaken for a severe cold/flu when first struck down with these and both infections are very common in the community.
  20. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi heapsreal,
    I also have confirmed Chalm pneumonia and mycoplasma infections, but still no effects with metronidazole!! :)

    Lala,
    I found this website about milk thistle.
    http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/hepC/mthistle.html
    Apparently it actually increases the effect of some drugs including some antibiotics, by making them stay longer in the body. I asked my doctgor about it adn he said to take it for a maximum of 4 weeks then stop for at least 6 months before repeating. They've just made it a prescription only drug in Europe, as a lot of research has shown these interactions and that it is very powerful.

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