adreno
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Those are exactly the kind of CNS reactions that you would likely avoid by switching to the non-acetylated form.
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L-Carnitine Fumarate
- Thread starter Branston
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liquid sky
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Thanks, maybe why I feel no help from taking it.
Rand56
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hi liquid sky
I thought I remembered awhile back reading some negative info about tartaric acid and I found this...
"Tartaric acid inhibits the enzyme fumarase which is important in the function of the Krebs cycle, the biochemical process that produces most of the body's energy. In addition, the inhibition of fumerase also decreases the supply of malic acid for other functions of the cell. The proper function of the Krebs cycle depends on a continuing supply of malic acid. If malic acid is not provided in sufficient quantities, the Krebs cycle is short-circuited."
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/book/bk5sect2.html
Seems like LCF would be a better way to go for you.
Rand
P.S. This may also explain why I felt like crap when I tried a pre-workout formula that had a bunch of L-Carnitine Tartrate in it. Don't know for sure but it's possible.
Ok. Thank you.
Lotus97
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Acetyl L-Carnitine and especially Acetyl L-Carnitine Arginate are supposed to be effective in the growth of neurites in the brain. They are also supposed to be good for improving cognitive function. GPLC (Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine) can increase NO (nitric oxide). There's sort of a debate as to whether increasing NO is a good thing or a bad thing. ALCAR and GPLC can be purchased in powder form making them more affordable. ALCAR makes me too wired now so I'm just using Carnitine Fumarate at the moment. I take 500 mg a day divided into 3 doses (166 mg each). Jarrow sells a combination supplement that includes Carnitine Fumarate, GPLC, Acetyl L-Carnitine Arginate, and Acetyl-L-Carnitine Taurinate.
ALCAR has more CNS effects for most people because being acetylated it cross the BBB much more readily (numerous references available online). Those with impaired BBB integrity may find that they still react strongly to L-carnitine. In a normal healthy person with a strong BBB, regular L-carnitine should only be transported across at a low concentration into the CNS. The other factors like arginate and taurinate, etc. are about bio availability and what the disassociated component does on its own.
Freddd
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The best carnitines seem to be those manufactured by Sigma Tau in Italy. Jarrow and Drs Best and maybe other brands are made by Sigma Tau. A person that has a strong response to one form may not have any response at all to mixed carnitines or other forms. A person needs to do an A-B set of trials to determine what they respond to best. Also needed are AdoCbl for best effectiveness and for at least some, biotin. People that respond well to ALCAR often don't respond to other forms and those that respond to LCF often don't respond to other forms. Why it happens this way I do not have any idea, just that it is pragmatically so on a percentage basis.
Freddd
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triffid113
Day of the Square Peg
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For MS/CFS the only carnitine that worked for Velha was l-carnitine fumarate by Drs Best. There was one other brand which I do not recall. Other brands or types of carnitine did not work. She recovered from ME/CFS on Freddd's protocol which she had to titrate up slowly over months plus 3.5-5.0g/day l-carnitine fumarate plus appx 300mg Olice Leaf extract + ~ 300mg garlic + potentially some oil of oregano (the last mix fixed her gut issues).
Carnitine is required to break down fat for energy. The tie to the methyl cycle is that methylation is required to make carnitine!
Carnitine is required to break down fat for energy. The tie to the methyl cycle is that methylation is required to make carnitine!
Excellent point about the methylation cycle required to make carnitine. After all carnitine is methionine + lysine.
Also the methylation cycle is tied to production of creatine (a major responsibility) which is a major stimulator for ATP recycling from ADP. So there are multiple hooks between the methylation and Krebs cycle.
Freddd
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Yes indeed. The four horsemen of the Deadlock Quartet Ride again. L-carnitine fumarate is the exact one needed for fat transport.from the cell into the mitochondria. Multiple hooks.
Lotus97
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I also found this from Rich about carnitine and methylation.
I just want to note that several studies have shown that carnitine is low in ME/CFS. I think the reason is that methylation is required to make carnitine in the body. One of the main roles of carnitine is to usher fatty acids into the mitochondria of cells to be burned as fuel. In the urine organic acids test results that many people have posted or sent to me, I usually find that the fatty acids markers are showing buildup of omega oxidation of fatty acids, which occurs when there is a carnitine deficiency. Under these conditions, it makes sense that your muscles would respond to carnitine supplementation, since it raises the supply of fuel to their mitochondria. When the methylation cycle partial block has been lifted, the cells should be able to make enough carnitine for themselves.
SAMe is produced in the methylation cycle and is the main supplier of methyl (CH3) groups for a large number of methylation reactions in the body, including the methylation of DNA and the biosynthesis of creatine, carnitine, phosphatidylcholine, coenzyme Q10, melatonin and epinephrine. This measurement is made in the red blood cells because the level there reflects an average over a longer time and is less vulnerable to fluctuations than is the plasma level of SAMe.
Best regards,
Rich
I just want to note that several studies have shown that carnitine is low in ME/CFS. I think the reason is that methylation is required to make carnitine in the body. One of the main roles of carnitine is to usher fatty acids into the mitochondria of cells to be burned as fuel. In the urine organic acids test results that many people have posted or sent to me, I usually find that the fatty acids markers are showing buildup of omega oxidation of fatty acids, which occurs when there is a carnitine deficiency. Under these conditions, it makes sense that your muscles would respond to carnitine supplementation, since it raises the supply of fuel to their mitochondria. When the methylation cycle partial block has been lifted, the cells should be able to make enough carnitine for themselves.
SAMe is produced in the methylation cycle and is the main supplier of methyl (CH3) groups for a large number of methylation reactions in the body, including the methylation of DNA and the biosynthesis of creatine, carnitine, phosphatidylcholine, coenzyme Q10, melatonin and epinephrine. This measurement is made in the red blood cells because the level there reflects an average over a longer time and is less vulnerable to fluctuations than is the plasma level of SAMe.
Best regards,
Rich
Freddd
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Hi Lotus,
I usually find that the fatty acids markers are showing buildup of omega oxidation of fatty acids, which occurs when there is a carnitine deficiency. Under these conditions, it makes sense that your muscles would respond to carnitine supplementation, since it raises the supply of fuel to their mitochondria. When the methylation cycle partial block has been lifted, the cells should be able to make enough carnitine for themselves.
First of course this goes right along with the Deadlock Quartet, the partial methylation block preventing carnitine from beong made which prevents ATP from being made which in the end cicles around and prevents the methylation process. In red is an assumption. There is a further unspoken assumption, that l-carnitine fumarate will be made for this transport job. Is this a further probem? Are there genes or whatever that keep us from doing so? SO the quesrtion is, have people who have been on carnitine for some years, now repaired their lack of funtioning so they in theory can stop carnitine. In a way Ii find this part much scarier, for me personally, than starting the things. I have stopped and started lots of thongs througnh the years. Stopping something so fundamental to test the theory that our restored bodies ought to be able to make it is daunting. On the other hand, my potassium needs continue to drop.
Freddd
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Hi Dbkita,
All sorts of hooks back and forth. It was this along with patterns of responses that clearly pointed out all the deadlocks. I've got most of the symptoms by nutrients up. There are some interesting patterns in there. I had deadlocks going at multiple levels and places.
Would you take a look and tell me what you think. Do they point to anything interesting for you? The muscle atrophy and inability to build the muscle, and only making watery fat possible while loosing healthy body tissue, giving contradictory weight loss/weight gain all look to tied up with carnitine and larger dose metafolin.
Will do.
I think for myself though there are additional complications because of my supra-physiological doses of corticosteroids which greatly alters arachidonic acid metabolism (AA is essential to building muscle).
On another note so far my response to LCF has been positive in terms of energy and mood. Want to wait and see a bit before I do a formal progress post. After five days I am comfortably up to 855 mg LCF (i.e. 500 mg l-carnitine). The current brand I am using I am not sure is Sigma Tau type so I am using this only until my Doctor's Best LCF arrives in the mail later this week.
I still have a feeling that my high glucocorticoids is going to be a battleground I have to tackle at some point. We will have to wait and see.
I noticed that most patients in the studies conducted in the article blow were taking between 2000-3000mg in divided daily doses. This was with ALC. Just got my Dr's Best ALCAR and waiting for Dr's Best ALC. Plan on taking both to get the best of both worlds.
http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/article_content.asp?edition=1§ion=2&article=77
Sorry, that's ALC (ALCAR) and LCF.
Freddd
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Hi Jorlev,
I found a combination of ALCAR and LCF to be completely useless. It is often one OR the other, rarely both together, and I hacve no idea why. Just passsing on results.
Hi all,
I thought I would share my experience with LCF last year in case it is helpful for anyone. I've founf Jarrow and Drs Best to have noticeable effects. For me, LCF only had body effects. I got an improved aerobic capacity and energy but no benefit to brain fog or cogntive stamina. I took about 2000mg LCF daily for a few months as this seemed to give the best result. After this time, though it started to effect my sleep badly even in fairly small amounts. I take maybe 100mg out of a capsule now once in a while.
An interesting effect from LCF is that in combination with MeB12 it enables me to follow a vegetarian diet without worsening symptoms. On the past I would increased illness on a vegetarian diet and basically have to eat red meat in order to feel better. So I gather I was low in LCF and needing the food source for it. (I'm not going to go into my choice to be a vegetarian here. I'm not looking for dietary advice.)
I'm just sharing my experience here, not looking for advice on this topic. Thanks.
I thought I would share my experience with LCF last year in case it is helpful for anyone. I've founf Jarrow and Drs Best to have noticeable effects. For me, LCF only had body effects. I got an improved aerobic capacity and energy but no benefit to brain fog or cogntive stamina. I took about 2000mg LCF daily for a few months as this seemed to give the best result. After this time, though it started to effect my sleep badly even in fairly small amounts. I take maybe 100mg out of a capsule now once in a while.
An interesting effect from LCF is that in combination with MeB12 it enables me to follow a vegetarian diet without worsening symptoms. On the past I would increased illness on a vegetarian diet and basically have to eat red meat in order to feel better. So I gather I was low in LCF and needing the food source for it. (I'm not going to go into my choice to be a vegetarian here. I'm not looking for dietary advice.)
I'm just sharing my experience here, not looking for advice on this topic. Thanks.