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Kratom?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by panckage, Jun 16, 2015.

  1. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    To treat my CFS/Fibro I've used ritalin, tramadol, marijuana, and tylenol 3's. I've found they have all work really well to improve my functional abilities (sometimes to feel almost normal) but the problem is the effects only seem to last so long so they aren't things I can use all the time (as well problems like tolerance and withdrawal for some). Sometimes it seems like I must go weeks or months before their positive effects return

    Anyways I tried Kratom for the first time and... WOW its like the first time I tried 100mg tramadol ER. Smooth, good energy, happy, gets rid of my basic background pain. I am so FUNCTIONAL AGAIN :D. I walked for 2 hours after work today. It was so nice :D. I haven't felt semi-normal for at least a month before I tried kratom

    I've only done it 3 times now so take what I say with a grain of salt, but so far good. I'm taking one 2.5-3g kratom dose every second day. Hopefully this can ward off tolerance issues.

    + greatly reduces dizziness/OI
    + brain works! (maybe little slower than a healthy brain, but much much better than my normal brain fog crap brain!)
    + first time i've been social and enjoyed human interaction in months
    + Euphoria (not sure its really that euphoric but crap... being able to do some normal things again :D
    + seems to help headaches quite a bit
    + fairly cheap
    + legal and without a prescription most places


    - effect seems to last 3-5 hours
    - tolerance + withdrawal issues (no idea how much though)
    - not a well studied drug (although used in southeast asia for hundreds of years. it appears to be relatively safe... but who knows)


    Anyways would love to hear other's experiences with kratom. I'm hoping its going to be more than just a honeymoon for me :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
  2. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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  3. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    Never heard of Kratom...........but looked at kratomonline.com and it looks like there are many different strains/fusions. @panckage............. what kind did you use?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2015
  4. *GG*

    *GG* Senior Member

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    Never heard of this before. Where do you buy it?

    GG
     
  5. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    It is getting close to becoming scheduled, and they are seizing shipments here and there. Just FYI.
    Anyway, I wanted to add that in my experience it is a plant that has a very quixotic personality, so you might get euphoria and gentle energy boost one day, then grumpy irritation the next. It can also out of nowhere induce nausea, in which case you should eat (i know, counter intuitive, but there it is.) I find it really helpful as well, and hope it remains obtainable and affordable. It is important to take breaks from it occasionally, and when doing so, it is prudent to titrate slowly off and on.

    ETA: it is gently stimulating in lower doses, but sedating at higher doses. It is in the higher-dose parameters that dependency is a potential risk; but most PWMEs are unlikely to be seeking sedation.
    I always recommend titrating on or off any plant, supplement or medication that the body has gotten used to, obvious dependency or not, so as not to shock or otherwise stress the systems affected.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Kratom is quasi legal at best, and illegal in many countries. Its an alternative to opiates. Its effects seem to be highly variable person by person.
     
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  7. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    @alex3619 that is true of most things around here, isn't it?!:rolleyes::confused:
    In my direct experience, with kratom it is also the plant itself that gives highly variable effects, both by dosage and by its innate quirkiness.
     
  8. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi @leela,

    Hmmm.... Are you certain it's the plant that has innate quirkiness? Or could the variable effects be the result of highly quirky human beings? ;):rolleyes::)
     
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  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    It seems to have affinity for a wide range of receptors. That means that individual variation might make its response variable. People have been blaming the people who use it for its variability, that is common in commentary, but I think it more likely that a wide range of receptor targets gives it such a range of effects that its going to have different outcomes in different people.

    You do not get that with most substances or drugs. Most of their problems stem from specific action.
     
  10. belize44

    belize44 Senior Member

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    I can see this being abused by addictive types, and ruining availability for the rest of us. I myself would be curious to try it, but find that fact that it is hard to know how it will affect me a deterrent. Thanks for sharing that info, though! I am intrigued.
     
  11. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    There's a select few of us who respond really well to buzzy drugs. Opioids, GHB, and alcohol have all mostly relieved my post-exertional malaise in the past. The problem unfortunately is the inevitable addiction. Imagine you had a substance that made you feel really good, as well as enable you to exercise again. How could you not become addicted to that? I'll confess too that I'm quite prone to addiction besides the symptomatic relief, and as such choose not use them regularly. When it's a full moon or something, but never even remotely regularly.

    I believe Jay Goldstein was onto something with his limbic hypothesis and spontaneous cures. And I know others who've had problems with addiction that also seem to do well with opioids. We're talking massive relief. Goldstein is worth checking out if you haven't already. I know specifically what my stressors are, and they are real infections and real toxins, yet tweaking the brain really delivers. It's quite mysterious.

    So having heard of kratom I decided to give it a whirl. I purchased three 100g bags of the mellowest strains. The first made me irritable. The second as well. And I didn't get around to trying the third for another week or so, but when I did... oh boy. Let's just say I turned off the lights, kicked back, and watched some Brit Floyd on the tube. That fist dose buzzed me as much as a couple oxycodone.

    I played around with it for a few months. Taking it most days with lesser, but still substantial, effect. And the days off weren't emotionally bad at all. Though I'm sure this will vary from person to person and from strain to strain. Also I'd say it was about 80% consistent. So two times out of ten it didn't feel so good; nausea and a slight paradoxical effect. It is a mercurial one.

    Quite interestingly the symptoms I attribute to CIRS were mitigated while using it, but then worse the next day if I didn't take a dose. I'm talking about muscle burn and breathlessness. Apparently signs of reduced VEGF. I also get these symptoms when I start binding with CSM or chlorella the first few days of a detox run, so I'm pretty sure kratom has an impact on the Shoemaker pathway. Moreover I read a blog some time ago where a female kratom user was convinced it was an MSH agonist. Maybe she's right. Also @Tristen on the forum here claims suboxone reduces his Shoemaker inflammatory markers.

    All that said, the seesaw effect turned me off. As did those 20% of bad days. Nowadays it's just a risky band aid when I'm feeling particularly crappy. I'm grateful this is seldom.

    Oh, yeah, the strain that really worked for me was Red Kalimantan.
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Very interesting, @panckage.

    What type of kratom are you using: white vein, red vein or green vein kratom?


    I tried kratom myself not so long ago (3 grams of Thai white vein kratom made as a tea), but noticed no effects. However, I need to experiment with different dose levels.

    There is the odd report or two online of ME/CFS patients getting good results with kratom:


    The Main Active Ingredients in Kratom Are:

    Mitragynine (plus its metabolite mitragynine-pseudoindoxyl) which are agonists of the mu-opioid receptor and delta-opioid receptor. Mitragynine also has effects on adenosine, alpha adrenergic and serotonin receptors. Ref: 1

    7-hydroxymitragynine which agonises mu, delta and kappa opioid receptors.

    Kratom and mitragynine have different effects depending on whether taken at low or higher doses:
    However, as to the biochemistry behind these low or high dose levels, different sources say slightly different things:


    Kratom Dosage Guidelines:
    Some other kratom dosage guidelines:


    White Vein, Red Vein And Green Vein Kratom:

    As well as the kratom dose level, the type of kratom you buy (white vein, red vein or green vein) has a bearing on the effects you will experience:
    Red vein kratom tends to have higher levels of 7-hydroxymitragynine than white vein. Ref: 1



    Delta-Opioid Receptor Agonism Seems to Provide Neuroprotective Effects:

    This study found that delta-opioid receptor agonism, but not mu-opioid nor kappa-opioid receptor agonism, protects neocortical neurons from glutamate-induced excitotoxic injury. See also this study. This neuroprotection from glutamate induced injury seems to be mediated by the inhibitory effect of delta-opioid receptor agonism on NMDA receptor activation. Ref: 1

    Mitragynine co-administrion with morphine seems to mitigate the tolerance build-up with chronic morphine treatment. Ref: 1 2 So this kratom ingredient has the potential for treating drug addiction.

    These neuroprotective effects of delta-opioid receptor activation suggest that for ME/CFS purposes, it is the lower dose range of kratom (which some websites say activate delta-opioid receptors) that may work best. The low dose range of kratom is also energizing, which is presumably what you want in ME/CFS.



    Delta-Opioid Receptor Agonism May Treat Pain Without Addictive Effects:

    Targeting delta opioid receptor may reduce pain without causing addiction



    Interesting Kratom Websites:

    Kratom-World
    The Kratom Bible - A Complete Guide to Kratom | Enso Botanicals
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2015
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  13. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    @Tammy the strain have is called Cosmic Bali (Borneo red). It is powdered leaf.. Not sure how much the strains actually differ and how much is marketing gimmic;

    @ggingues I bought it online. I don't want to say the place since about 90% of posts online about kratom are shilling. But if you interested here's a good guide about what to look for/avoid when finding a source https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200101

    @leela what dosages were u using when you had nausea? from my research so far i think i have only seen that in higher dosages...

    @belize44 i believe it you start out at a lower dosage you should be fine. the effects really seem to change in higher dosages. This plant is a relative of coffee plant so I wouldn't worry too much

    @Dufresne luckily I don't have an addictive personality so not an issue for me personally. I've tried alternating stimulants/opiates/marijuana so I would do each one once or twice a week. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a dosing schedule that can keep the positive effects thus far...
    What were your dosages? How often did you take it?

    @Hip Its red vein. I just put mine in a shot glass and then mixed with water. It doesn't really mix so I had to refill it maybe 5 times to get it all haha
     
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  14. AaroninOregon

    AaroninOregon noob

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    @panckage how is the kratom experiment going?
     
  15. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    @AaroninOregon its going pretty good it has earned a place in my rotation and I do definitely recommend it.

    Some additional thoughts:
    - I haven't seemed to develop and tolerance to the positive effects after taking it every second day for a month (unlike the opiates I tried - T3's and tramadol). That said sometimes it works really well, other times not so much. It seems pretty random how well it works but ->
    - It seems if I take kratom after a meal I have little effect from it so I try to wait 3+ hours after a meal before taking it. Seems weird but others have reported the same
    - It seems to work best if I take it earlier in the day... say 2-3pm or so. I think I normally crash in the evenings so I don't notice its effects so much then. I think timing it to the time of day where my energy is relatively good has the best effect
    - I find red vein (Borneo) is good for pain relief and euphoria... but energy not so much. I still can't really exercise on it. OTOH the white and green vein varieties i have tried are better for energy ( I can ride my exercise bike on it) but not really euphoria (I'm not sure about pain relief). I've tried mixing different strains to get the best of both worlds. First time it worked perfectly, next time doing the same mix I got barely any effect at all (What the hell, why is it random?!?!? LOL)


    My current rotation:

    Day 1: 30mg ritalin
    Day 2: 0.1 - 0.15g marijuana in a vaporizer
    Day 3: 3-5g of kratom (still experimenting with dose but 3g for first dose of the day followed sometimes by a 2g dose 2 hours later. unfortunately the effects don't seem to last very long so redosing is probably necessary)


    I'm 6'6" 205lb with a healthy BMI.
     
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  16. AaroninOregon

    AaroninOregon noob

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    @panckage thanks for the reply.

    I tried some this morning (I'm not sure what type, but I eill ask my friend that I got it from ). About 1/2 hour after taking it I was pretty jittery, but that symptom has since subsided.

    I took 1 teaspoon of powder...I'm not sure what that would equal in grams, but I assume it's less than 1.

    I'll have to try it later in the day as that's usually when my energy is best.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015
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  17. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    1 level TBS = 7grams
    so 1 tsp would be 2.3 grams.
     
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  18. AaroninOregon

    AaroninOregon noob

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    Oh, I'm glad I didn't take more then.

    Thanks @leela.
     
  19. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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  20. AaroninOregon

    AaroninOregon noob

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    @panckage I didn't notice any positive effects from yesterday's trial, but I'm not done with my kratom trial. I'll try it again in a day or 2 and see how it goes. :)

    Thanks for the link regarding weight measurements, interesting stuff.
     

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