1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
California 2014: IACFS/ME Day Four: Translating Science into Clinical Care: 23 March 2014
It is Day Four and the final conference session from San Francisco. In this review we hear from Searcher about the neurosciences session, and PET and EEG analysis, then a study on cognitive functioning, followed by a debate on the revised 2014 IACFS/ME Primer, and then we wrap-up the...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

KPU & Mercury and other Heavy Metal Chelation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Sushi, Jan 13, 2010.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes:
    496
    Seattle
    testing...testing...

    2 weeks later...I finally finished the test. I scored a 12, maybe a 13...wasn't quite sure about the weight thing. I consider myself very skinny, but was just a few pounds above the weight limit in order to score a "1".

    But since I don't have any menstrual problems or pregnancy issues (at least I hope not!), leaving those two sections out kind of skews the results.

    I'm going to call the doctor (who was trained by Klinghardt) on Monday. Gotta get this test...(and the methylation if I can raise the $)...it just explains SO many of my symptoms, both pre and post CFS.

    Also, in the last few days I've been taking extra copper, as I had tested low for that several times in the past, and had never really taken it very much...but in doing so (I think it was the copper), I've had such bad mood swings and almost suicidal thoughts, (and lots of anxiety/anger)...that it just seems to fit in even more with the pyroluria hypothesis. One doc's website says to avoid copper and fish oil...two things I actually added within the last week or so.......argh.

    Thanks again for this thread.

    d.
  2. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

    Messages:
    835
    Likes:
    243
    Scott AKA Better Health Guy has a very nice set of slides from a presentation he did on KPU (HPU) just last week. There are 46 slides but they're clear, nice bite sized pieces, and they cover almost everything I've read about the condition - more than the original Klinghardt slide presentation I posted earlier in this thread.

    The presentation is here: http://betterhealthguy.com/joomla/images/stories/PDF/kpu_lymelighters_0110_presentation.pdf

    My understanding is that both inherited KPU and the predisposition for aquired KPU come via your mother. Health conditions in your mother's side of the family can often support the case to test.

    Re the test, Dr Klinghardt seems to hold the director of Vitamin Diagostics in high esteem, however he cautioned that a false negative was very possible if the exact procedure he described isn't followed. Some of that is down to the lab needing to refrigerate the sample and test it fairly promptly. He seemed to think this was a bit "hit and miss" with the lab from his experience....so it's really important to phone the lab and keep them on the case.
    D K also said if you strongly suspect a pos and get a neg, that may be enough reason to do the protocol anyway. (For that reason, plus logistical ones, I'm going to treat without testing.)


    That copper experience doesn't sound good at all Dan! Hope you'll feel better having stopped it.

    PS Weren't you supposed to give yourself one point for pregnancy anyway? ETA, oops no I had that wrong! Those are about the only categories I didn't score highly, or at all! :Retro smile:
  3. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes:
    4,581
    Albuquerque
    Hi Guys,

    I have all the supplements now and have started the protocol as described by Klinghardt via the Better Health Guy--Scott.

    My doc told me to ease into the doses, so I am doing that. One thing I have found is that I can't handle a big dose of zinc on an empty stomach--nausea--I have to take it with food. I am not yet up to the full dose of zinc but the other things have gone well.

    I am also using Klinghardt's liquid minerals (a zillion trace minerals). The one my doctor wanted me to take is called: Matrix Minerals--humic and fulvic minerals (organically infused nano nutrients). Because it is liquid, it is easy to titrate.

    So far so good....:Retro smile:

    Sushi
  4. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

    Messages:
    835
    Likes:
    243
    Sushi,

    Glad to hear it's still going well. :Retro smile: Thanks for posting an update.

    You're taking the key supplements individually as opposed to an all-in-one (like the Core)? That seems to me the ideal approach but I couldn't find any Biotin in big enough doses - only 1/10th of what is required, meaning 10 of them per day obviously....so I went back to looking at the combined supplement - for simplicity's sake.
    I read that the nausea from the zinc is supposed to resolve after a couple of months, I think it's tied in with stomach acid naturally increasing as a result of the protocol kicking in and beginning to support long stagnant enzyme systems/processes. It'll be really interesting to see if this happens with you!! :Retro smile::Retro smile:

    Did you get the KPU/HPU test from V. D.? Or did your doctor determine your need for treatment another way?

    Best, Anne.
  5. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes:
    4,581
    Albuquerque
    Hi Anne,

    That is interesting about zinc and nausea! :thumbsup:

    Vitamin Diagnostics has been closed for a few months cause they are moving the lab. Rich says they should reopen sometime in February. (they also offer the methylation panel) So I haven't had the test. My doc diagnosed the HPU both from autonomic response testing and his and Klinghardt's experience that about 80% of those with heavy metal toxicity and/or Lyme (I have both :eek:) have HPU going on. Also that online test sounds "just like me."

    I have been able to get individuals of the different supplements online, so I am increasing one at a time to see how the higher dose effects me. Most I don't notice anything unpleasant, but with the empty-stomach-zinc it was a race to see whether I could get some peppermint oil laced water down before I needed to throw up! (peppermint water won!)

    I keep posting as I notice stuff.

    Sushi
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes:
    496
    Seattle
    Hi Anne and Sushi,

    Thanks for both of your replies...good to hear you're making progress Sushi!

    That's an interesting take Anne, on why the zinc may cause nausea. I've been hassling poor Joey about the reported violent (or strong) reaction he and others have encountered taking the zinc/b-6/etc., combo...because the amounts of minerals and b-vits seem to be only about twice the RDA, so why in the h-e-double-toothpick would they make anyone so sick? Both he and Scott have stressed the need to follow this protocol strictly under a doctor's guidance (which of course makes sense), but I've never read of these reactions on other sites when it comes to people with plain ol' pyrolurria. In fact several sites say the opposite...(but these typically aren't patients with CFS)...that one may feel better within days to a few weeks...so I'm still very puzzled.

    Also...although I'm very open to all these alternative treatments...I've never read anywhere (except perhaps in the Klinghardt paper) that zinc helps to chelate heavy metals. Perhaps someone has a link to some sort of research or study on this?

    And this microsilica product? Does anyone know if there is any research to back up claims that it chelates heavy metals? Or is it a product like activated charcoal, that's designed to pull metals from the gut, once they've been chelated from the rest of the body?

    After reading a lot about the Andy Cutler protocol six months ago (already), he stresses over and over again how dangerous it can be if 'weak' chelators are used (like chlorella), and/or if other chelating agents aren't used frequently enough to prevent them from moving mercury from one organ into another (like the brain?). He recommends alpha-lipoic-acid, and then only if one takes it every three-four hours, for 3 days, 2 nights...24/7...then one takes a 10 day break and starts all over again. I did it a few times, several months back, and it wasn't too difficult...actually felt better, but then let it slide, and am now too crashed to consider it. (Cutler's very outspoken, and has strong opinions on all of this, but he did recover from CFS and has helped others do so (and also autistic patients) after a lot of research. A google search will turn up more info...)

    Sushi...that's interesting (and frustrating) that Vitamin Diagnostechs is still closed. They were supposed to reopen in December...I can imagine they'll probably be backed up with tests for quite a while. Do you have a link to their website? I tried to google 'em, but only came up with pdf files, and the site for Diagnos-Techs, which does the salivary adrenal stress test. It didn't list any other testing, so I'm assuming that's a different company?

    Okay, I'll shut up. :)

    d-bex

    p.s. Oh...Anne, "Country Life" makes a 5mg Biotin...available online at a variety of prices.
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes:
    4,581
    Albuquerque
    Danny,

    It is late now so I'll just answer the Vit Diag question. As far as I know they don't have a website. Maybe they will develop one when they reopen. My information comes from a post by Rich Van K. I'll paste it in here:

    by richvank Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:15 pm

    Hi.

    I just spoke with Dr. Audhya by phone, and he told me that they have completed most of the work involved in the lab move, but they are currently finishing up some work on the electrical and telephone systems, and this will have to be inspected and approved by the local township.

    He said he will phone me next week to give me a more accurate estimate of their restart date, but they are currently shooting for the middle of February.

    I'll post about this as soon as I get the word from him.
    I'm sorry about this delay.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  8. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

    Messages:
    835
    Likes:
    243
    Thanks for the biotin heads up Dan.

    No studies, just Klinghardt and his observations. (And those of other doctors he's trained.)

    If you have a spare 2 - 3 hours and don't mind apallingly (I mean really) bad video clips featuring women with voices that sound like fingernails down a chalkboard, then I can post links to D.K. talking at length about KPU, chelation and even where methylation (and testing for it) fits into his picture.

    Oh maybe I'll post the videos anyway. You can watch them at your discretion. You've been warned.

    http://www.viddler.com/explore/THRiiiVE/videos/219/
    http://www.viddler.com/explore/THRiiiVE/videos/220/
    http://www.viddler.com/explore/THRiiiVE/videos/221/
    http://www.viddler.com/explore/THRiiiVE/videos/222/
    http://www.viddler.com/explore/THRiiiVE/videos/223/

    PS feel bad about what I said about the woman's voice, but if you have KPU issues and you're in the middle of a crash things like this do need to come with a warning ;)


  9. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

    Messages:
    835
    Likes:
    243
    More KPU stuff...

    For what it's worth Dan :Retro smile: here's D.K.'s explanation of Microsilica and how it works...
    From Joe Mercolas notes of D.K.'s talk at the Thriiive conference:
    From the same notes, this is what he says happens in metal toxic people (explains why people may feel worse?):
    So zinc causes displacement as opposed to chelation? Again no studies to back this up. Only observation of his patients experience I guess.

    My understanding is that the supplements on the KPU protocol are designed not only to replace zinc but to prevent loss of it, So the result, after having been deficient through a condition that causes it's loss, is likely to be more complex than it would be for just anyone simply taking 200% of the RDA.
    Probably not a good description - but I visualise it more like going from -300 to 200, than from 0 - 200.

    More on HCL: Zinc and HCL are in a way co-dependent, so after upping zinc dosage there can be some discomfort while the enzyme system supporting the production of HCL catches up, and this can take 2 - 3 months. Sounds like working up gradually would be wise.

    Can't comment on the chelation protocol differences. What a minefield! I've done a different protocol altogether in the past. But effective, safe, chelation does seem to be a very important part of addressing KPU/HPU. I guess a person just has to go with what feels best for them??
    (I've been a member of the frequent dose chelation board long enough to know there's never going to be a lot of reconciliation between Cutlers protocol and Klinghardts!)

    Anne.
  10. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes:
    4,581
    Albuquerque
    Hi Anne & Dan,

    Anne, thanks so much for all the info and links you have posted--I really appreciate it and it helps a lot to understand more about what may be happening when using the HPU protocol.

    And Dan & Anne, I didn't know the theory behind microsilica--I just trust my doc and his experience as it has been right on for me so far. I took microsilica in tiny doses for a month, and only every other day because it was powerful for me. I woke up on the 2nd day feeling bright eyed and chirpy (so to speak! :D) And the only thing I was doing "different" was taking the microsilica.

    For me, it only worked for about a month (I could feel the effect decreasing) and after testing again, my doc switched me to a high dose of chlorella (not the usual kind that is sold) followed a half an hour later by 300 mg of DMSA--twice a week. So far this is working well and I am staying in that good zone. I even managed a brisk one hour walk yesterday--couldn't do that before.

    Just anecdotal, but for the patient, it is how you feel that counts as much as the theory behind it.

    Sushi
  11. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

    Messages:
    835
    Likes:
    243
    Sushi :)

    Sushi,
    Thought I'd responded to you aready. (I was using my notebook last night and things tend to go missing or come out backwards :confused: as I'm dangerous with a touchpad!)

    I figured you would have likely been diagnosed with art.

    ...I don't know if you'll get through all those hours of video I linked to, but if you see the bit where D.K. describes some of the challenges of testing with Vit. Diagnostics you might find it difficult to put too much faith in a test result from them anyway. At least not until they are much better organised?
    D.K. suggests testing for the methylation panel after addressing KPU, so I'll probably try and go ahead with that.

    I have another question...:Retro redface:....are you continuing with the methylation supps while using the KPU ones?
    I didn't know you had Lyme! (Actually wouldn't know if I have it either? LOL)

    Stay well as can be, :Retro smile:

    Anne.

  12. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes:
    4,581
    Albuquerque
    Anne,

    Yes, I am continuing with the methylation supplements. I had trouble with them (about a year into the protocol) until I did a few LED's to lower the toxic load, and now they go down well. :Retro smile:

    I have done 2 methylations panels (a year apart), so sometime after Vit Diag comes back online, I'll get tested again and see what is going on. The results of the 2nd panel were much better than the first, and I'm hoping I have improved more. My first test was before starting the protocol and out of the 13 things tested, I tested out of range on 12 of them! :eek:

    So we'll see...It will be very interesting for you to finally get the methylation panel done. I am also hoping they will be better organized.

    Sushi
  13. susan

    susan Senior Member

    Messages:
    269
    Likes:
    14
    Gold Coast Australia
    I am confused with the Vitamin Diagnostics site.......they seem to advertise various labs ie. Metametrix Neuroscience....Do they have lab of their own. Who do you choose.?
  14. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

    Messages:
    835
    Likes:
    243
    Hi Susan,

    As far as I know Vitamin Diagnosics doesn't have a website, just contact by phone or fax.
    "Vitamin Diagnostics has moved to the following address! Vitamin Diagnostics, 540 Bordentown Avenue, Suite 4930, South Amboy, NJ 08879, Tel: +1 732-721-1234; Fax: +1 732-525-3288".

    Perhaps someone can confirm if that is their new address?

    Anne.
  15. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes:
    4,581
    Albuquerque
    UPDATE from Sushi on KPU/HPU protocol:

    I saw my doctor yesterday and had another LED for mercury--yeah! :D

    As I raise my levels of the HPU supplements (I am up to full dose on everything but zinc) more mercury seems to get displaced and starts to circulate. The LED gets rid of the amount you would ordinarily get rid of in several months of regular chelation.

    As I understand it, raising levels of the HPU supplements displaces and releases mercury as mercury has bonded with other molecules that would normally use zinc (and other minerals)--if you had enough of them available. When you give your body an ample supply of zinc et al., this mercury will be displaced. This makes the KPU protocol tricky to balance. He also suggested taking some apple cider vinegar with the zinc to reduce any nausea you may get.

    So far so good--but I am very glad to have the help of LED and other oral chelators to help eliminate the mercury.

    Sushi
  16. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    735
    Hi, Anne (and Susan and the group).

    Yes, that's the correct new address and phone number for the Vitamin Diagnostics lab.
    I think they are still finishing up their move to this new location, and may not be up to full
    operation yet, but hopefully they will be soon.

    Rich
  17. R**

    R** Senior Member

    Messages:
    112
    Likes:
    2
    Posted to another thread, but it applies here as well:

    I am getting from yasko that its better to get methlation stable before going after bugs and metals (the ones the methylation does not address.. in biofilm or whereever).. so here's a problem at least for me..

    I take enzymes because my blood tends to be thick... so I am going to be releasing metals and bateria by doing so, so I have to be on some sort of killing protocol while still working on methylation, which has its own issues for me with the heavy metal flusing that comes so quickly and hard.

    Any ideas? I also have babesias and lyme that flare up. How do you treat?control the liberated bacteria, metals, manage lyme and babs and still be in process (and it is slow) on the methylation protocol?

    Additionally, yasko does not seem to like addressing KPU hard and first. She thinks methylation is key not KPU. B6 not good for lymies in high does and contraindicated high does for COMT+ and I forget what else CBS?

    I can see her point.. if you overload methylation supps in one directions and derail other processes by overloading then.. ????

    DK says KPU first.. then address methylation snps because KPU will somehow (magicall? there is no explanation!) address the snps.. ?? I would appreciate an explanation from him as to why this would be, esp given the seemingly precarious nature of methylation once it is off track.

    If you push B6 you are going to risk draining the pathway, right??? Not sure I have this all correct in my mind. She also told me that zinc can cause glutamate issues, which are not pretty.

    I am very confused at the different view from Dk and Yasko on this and any help understanding, perspective will be appreciated. I have two children positive for KPU and with methylation genetic issues as well as myself.

    I think yasko can be strict, but I am not gettin sufficient explanation from DK to settle my mind.

    He did say that addressing KPU he thinks causes gene expression to calm down (for HLA types and methylation it seems) and for the heatlhy on in the hetergenous pair to replicate.. no explanation.. and no explanation as to what happens with the homogenous pair..

    KPU sounds like a strong arm technigue while methylation protocol very methodical and thoughtful.. maybe too thoughtful?

    If you derail methylation with KPU supps/dosing.. then ??? If you dont address KPU???

    Thanks!
  18. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes:
    4,581
    Albuquerque
    R**,

    I don't really have any answers to your good and thoughtful questions. I have been doing Rich's methylation protocol for over 2 years and have improved a lot on it...but there is still more to deal with. :tongue:

    Now I am seeing a doctor who works with a combination of Drs. Cowden and Klinghardt's protocols--modified to fit his patients. I have been doing LEDs for different things as well as mercury. I am also working up to the full KPU protocol. Everything was going very well until Saturday when I seemed to have a huge mercury dump and had a day of the kind of heart irregularities that Dreambirdie has been describing in her Iodine Despair thread. Mine only lasted a day though, but underlined the cautions necessary when dealing with mercury. :ashamed:

    I called my doctor to ask about the heart irregularities and he told me to back off on doses of zinc on the KPU protocol and on the days I take zeolite, to skip the zinc and to take the zeolite in the morning rather than the evening. This is tricky stuff. :worried: I know I need to do the KPU protocol...and, my doctor keeps saying that this is a tricky, skicky zone that I am in--that is before I get to a place where the KPU isn't displacing so much mercury.

    I am glad that I am well established on the methylation protocol and am probably doing pretty well with methylation now (I'll test again when Vitamin Diagnostics reopens). This, I think, helps me to eliminate mercury.

    I know this is going to be a tough and confusing choice for you. I hope it goes well.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
  19. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    735
    Hi, R**

    The connection between KPU and methylation is that KPU causes loss of some of the vitamins and minerals (such as B6 and zinc) that are important as cofactors for enzymes in the methylation cycle and related pathways.

    About two-thirds of the people with CFS (PWCs) who have tried the Simplified Treatment Approach (extracted from Dr. Yasko's "step 2") have benefited from it. Of the other third, I suspect that some may have KPU, and thus did
    not have enough of the cofactor vitamins and minerals.

    Dr. Klinghardt's discovery in this regard was that about 80% of his patients have KPU, and he noted that there was this connection involving the cofactors. So he has emphasized that if KPU is present, it needs to be treated first, in order to be
    able to get the methylation cycle block lifted.

    His view is that this is a more important factor than whether a person has various SNPs in these enzymes. He may be right about that. I certainly do agree that the cofactors are important and lack of them may explain some of the treatment failures with the Simplified Treatment Approach. I note that freddd, who posts on the B12 thread in this forum, has also found that the cofactors are important with his protocol, which has some similarities to the Simp. Trtmnt. Approach and the full Yasko approach.

    I don't doubt, though, that the polymorphisms are important. Most of the polymorphisms slow down the reactions that are catalyzed by the enzymes in which they are found. CBS is an exception to this.

    Please note that in the clinical study Dr. Nathan and I carried out using the Simplified Treatment Approach, we treated all the patients the same for 6 months, whether they had CBS SNPs or not. We found that they improved in methylation cycle function and glutathione levels, whether or not they had this SNP. It was true, though, the those who did not have the SNP improved sooner. So yes, the SNPs do have effects, but perhaps lack of cofactors is more important, if the cofactor levels are very low. I think the distinction here is that the SNPs can only impact the enzymes a certain amount, while the cofactors can be very low, and if they are, they can impact the activity of the enzymes more than the SNPs can.

    I realize that Dr. Yasko advises not to build up B6 if there is a CBS upregulating SNP. However, I find in lab tests that many PWCs are depleted in B6, and I think it's because it gets lost in elevated cycling in the transamination reactions, which PWCs use more than normal, because they are needed to feed amino acids into the Krebs cycle for fuel, which PWCs do more than normal.

    Another thing that seems to account for some of the treatment failures is that many PWCs are depleted in amino acids. I think this results from a combination of gut dysbiosis and consequent maldigestion and malabsorption, and increased burning of amino acids for fuel in PWCs, because carbs and fats are partially blocked early in the Krebs cycle. Amino acids are needed as feed material for the methylation cycle and related pathways.

    Dr. Yasko also advises to lower protein intake if there is a CBS SNP. I do not agree with this for PWCs, because I see many who are depleted in amino acids, which are derived from dietary protein.


    I hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  20. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    936
    Likes:
    91
    Rich
    thanks for your input. Yr post helped me make sense of how KPU fits into the context of methylation.
    Quick question: what are the signs of B6 deficiency on say a MAP or a UAA?
    Also, it seems odd that yasko would not have caught this, specifically the b6 and zinc, not so much the aminos as I believe she has been encouraging ppl to supplement those.
    Do they not show up on the testing that she does?
    Any thoughts on that?
    thanks

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page