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Kombucha Tea

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Mij, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    I'm thinking of making this myself. I found a place to buy a Scoby and instructions.

    Is anyone here making this? What are your experiences? thanks
    allyb likes this.
  2. Plum

    Plum Senior Member

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    Hi

    I've made it. Tastes a bit weird. I enjoy making it but do find it time consuming to do regularly especially as I never know how I'll feel from day to day.

    Some people find it helps with their overall well being but I haven't experienced this myself.

    Good luck and have fun making scoby babies!
    Mij and allyb like this.
  3. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I'd start with synergy plain kombucha instead of getting someone's scoby. Just because you never know what someone's growing.

    I did this for 1-2 years and never noticed any improvement. It was interesting and tasty tho.

    Just be sure to use plenty of sugar and don't let it brew too long. Each batch can take a little different brewing time.

    I gave it up because I was using green tea which had too much caffeine for me. I'd use a tea with little or no caffeine next time.

    tc ... x
    Mij and allyb like this.
  4. allyb

    allyb Senior Member

    I have recently made it......an acquired taste but I like it...... you can use nettle tea or rooibos which will cut down on the caffeine but it is debatable as to whether the sugar is really all used up in the processing....it sure taste sweet and sadly I don't tolerate sugar......it also contains alcohol.
    There are plenty of scary health stories out there regarding kombucha......hospitalisation, deaths etc. The thing that concerned me most in every article was the risk to those who are immune compromised :oops:

    My very healthy sons have taken it over but as I'm soo sick I daren't risk it :(

    http://www.cancer.org/treatment/tre...rnativemedicine/dietandnutrition/kombucha-tea.

    allyb
    xchocoholic and Mij like this.
  5. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    Yes I've come across an article on "sciencegasedmedicine" that people with compromised immune systems should not drink this. Hmm, I don't think I will not take that chance, I've had relapses with immune modulators and stimulaters in the past. thanks for postings all your expereinces!
    allyb, Wayne and xchocoholic like this.
  6. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    A website called thesplendidtable had a good write up on this. I found it by googling kombucha warning.
    One other concern i had healthwise other than the sugar and alcohol is that I found that the containers where I'd previously stored my kombucha grew scobies in whatever I put in them if I didn't use bleach to kill the traces of scoby.
    Apparently the components of the scoby stay alive even after the bottles were washed and put away.

    ok. maybe that's a good trait. lol. I just couldn't believe how virulent my scoby was.

    I've started bleaching my dishes every so often after seeing this. When i can remember. The plastics always look better.

    tc ... x
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
    allyb likes this.
  7. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    The sauerkraut, miso or kefir I buy is always stored in a glass container. I think it's best to store fermented foods in glass or in a food-grade plastic container and to make sure it doesn't have cracks or scratches because this is where bad bacteria's can harbour.
    xchocoholic likes this.
  8. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I do this too. But my scoby friends didn't understand boundaries. They had to be eliminated via bleach. : )
  9. aaron_c

    aaron_c

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    I seem to remember Rich Van K saying that people with ME/CFS don't get viral/bacterial infections very often (ie. we rarely get the flu) because of the immune dysregulation that normally goes on in in ME/CFS prevents infection while allowing dormant or chronic infections to proliferate and flourish. I am sorry that I can't seem to find a link to this, possibly it is on the videos from sweden 2011... (Does anyone know?)

    So I guess I'm saying that if you have ME/CFS, and if you also experience infrequent colds or flues but frequent food or environmental sensitivity reactions, then the danger from kombucha might actually be lower than it poses for a healthy person.
  10. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    i don't understand how a "dysregulated" immune system can prevent infection? surely it allows it? having flu does not indicate infection per se, it indicates an immune response to infection. iif there were no immune response to infection you'd get/have me/cfs. i agree that dormant or underlying infections are able to proliferate in me/cfs.

    i tried kombucha a few times. nearly got round to making it but gave up on fermented foods. i did a post on the dangers of fermenting somewheres. aerobic fermenmtation = acidic. anearobic is how it happens in the body and how you should ferment imo. that involves a bubbler or some device to alloe co2 to escape but no oxygen to enter.
  11. aaron_c

    aaron_c

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    Hi Manna,

    Found the bit by Rich Van K on immune dysregulation. And as I read through it, I am only noticing him talking about viruses...so it may be that we are just (or more) susceptible to bacterial pathogens as the next person--I don't know. You are right: Kombucha is probably a riskier bet for those of us with ME/CFS.

    Still, I thought I'd post the Rich Van K stuff because it is so insightful:

  12. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    @aaron_c

    Thanks for posting this great article from Rich.

    Sushi
  13. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    aaron, to me, its the usual reductionist western view of viruses, littered with "us" and "them" "invader" talk. humans are brought up to fear viruses and microbes as some kind of evil intruder that its necessary to wage "war" on. see those adverts on the tv showing the latest cancer causing chemicals cantering across the kitchen sideboard, pictorially represented as knights in shining armour come to save the day. to see it as a war, imo, prevents understanding.

    digestion is a large part of immunity with stomach acid and bile ensuring no "invaders" get into the body via that entry and that food is digested so that it doesn't create waste that lower bacterium can get a foothold in.
  14. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    our immune system is chronically activated so we have less risk of viral infections.

    I am unable to tolerate probiotics so I try to eat some fermented foods, but my doctor says the effect of fermented foods as a probiotic substitute would be negligible.

    I like to mix kimchi with rice.
  15. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    it maybe right, im still not seeing it. if its chronically activated then why does it not mop up whats hanging around? digestion is a major part of immunity and is very compromised in most individuals with me/cfs.
  16. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    i think it is chronically activated only with respect to viruses. something about elevated cytokines or interferons(?). it is the same reason you do not usually get a second viral infection when you already have one.
  17. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    apparently you can have more than one viral infection according to google. i still have little idea what the "antiviral state" actually means. oh something just occured to me....i once read that vaccines can put the immune system on constant high alert.

    so the antiviral state is basically the first line of defense being stuck on high alert and because the "back up" doesn't arrive, dormant viruses replicate? i remember the first test i had at the docs,,,was to see if my body was fighting an infection. apparently there were elevated levels indicating this but was "only just over" so passed to me as normal. so is it saying that every cell in my body has some form of information in it that stops foreign rna replicating inside them? that would seem like quite a feat for an ill body or ive understood this wrong. i see, viruses attack particular systems.

    the basic reason why folk think they don't get flu etc, im assuming, is because they don't get that intense week long flu feeling. which, of course, only happens when the body is ridding itself of the foreign rna. i think its to be expected that there be a state of alert, whether this then stops further infection, i don't know. i assume they think this because folk don't get acute phases of flu with me/cfs. but flu is only flu when its dealt with by the body, i.e, feeling crap from ridding yourself of the dead cells and toxins. one would imagine that a compromised immune system would not do this very well and so no flu feeling would occur but does it automatically follow that means no more foreign rna "invasion" or no adequate response.

    is there biomedical proof that no cell, or pertinent cell, can be over taken by foreign rna in me/cfs? this might be basic biology/chemistry, i don't know. the antiviral state seems to me to mean no adequate reponse leading to no acute illness phase, like flu, rather than a state of alert that stops any new rna getting a foothold.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2014
  18. aaron_c

    aaron_c

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    Hmm... Once again, I am no expert. And I very much wonder what someone more learned would say. This is what I get after reading Rich Van K's paper:

    Looking over wikipedia's entry on interferon, it does indeed seem to induce an anti-viral state, and I think this might be what you are looking for? But my tiny bit of research has not turned up the extent to which this antiviral state persists in the presence of low NK and CD-8 responses. However I imagine that if, as you suggest, the antiviral state does not persist in people with ME, then we would have seen studies showing that a large portion of people with ME are (chronically) infected with the flu. I understand that the absence of proof proves nothing; but I, personally, would not bet on chronic influenza being part of the picture.

    I think that Rich Van K (and other theorists, to a greater or lesser degree) believe that the dysfunctional immune response is an essential player in the "vicious cycle." The wikipedia page on interferon looks like it might be pertinent. It seems a bit like the French invasion of Russia, where the Russians burned their fields rather than let the French live off of them. I'm saying that yes, interferon prevents viral replication, but maybe it makes more sense understanding that it comes at a price?

    What was it that indicated that your infection was just getting over?

    I agree completely with your sentiment on what extensive use of war metaphors in health fields reflects/has gotten us. It reminds me of the Naturopaths who believe Pasteur agreed on his deathbed that it was the "the mileau, not the microbe." I certainly think so. And I agree that improving gut health, or perhaps working with our body in a more systemic way like they do in eastern medicine would be very good.

    But Rich's use of war metaphors worked for me. In his defense, his first approach was to fix the mileau. I believe he said that he turned his research to individual infections only when fixing the mileau failed to cure most people. I do hope there is another immune metaphor that works as well as war does.

    I didn't know that. Cool!

    Finally: Since we are talking about kombucha, I just thought I'd say that I have been drinking it for two weeks, and so far so good (as long as I account for the B6). I have more energy, and can concentrate better on the days I drink it. I wonder if we need to have enough NADH to make glucuronic acid, so that we can really benefit from the beta-glucuronidase inhibitor (prevents glucuronic acid from being separated from whatever it is escorting out of the body). On the two days in the last two weeks that I haven't had NADH, the kombucha didn't seem to do much for me...but it is very early days.
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  19. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    im not suggesting the "anti-viral state" does not exist in me/cfs. im questioning the perception of and naming of that state. they seem to be assuming there's no further viral "invasion" due to interferon. the explanation of why thats so and the understanding of it, not that it be even be a correct understanding, would take alot of study. even just to understand the terminology. without that i certainly wouldn't agree with it! the word "anti-viral" state would seem logical in explaining why you don't catch a cold. it sounds right doesn't it...persuasive even. i would call it the "inability to recognise and remove viruses state".

    pertinent? you fully understand it? may i ask what vicious cycle? poor immune response would lead to the continuation of a chronic viral state. conventional medicine assumes that if you don't remove or "kill" pathogens from your body you die, no? could be wrong. me/cfs shows this to not be so...that one can be riddled with viral, microbial and fungal overload and still be upright. so is that no further viruses get a foothold or that because you're upright, they assume it must be like that?
    16 years ago. i could find out through docs records but if i can avoid speaking to him i will. it was a blood test to see if my body had mounted a response to some kind of infection in general. the resluts showed elevated something or other but not significant. it didn't show that i was getting over anything. if your immune system is struggling a poor response, according to the test, is what id expect. expecting a response, similar to someone who had flu for instance, would mean i didn't have me/cfs. but it was a mercury filling that knocked me back. and that opened me up viral, microbial and fungal overload, imo.
    that assumes that the particular "milieu" approach was any good. most aren't. perhaps he turned his attention because he didn't understand how to correct the terrain. i agree getting terrain right is tricky... and either you see the obviousness of not separating infection from terrain, or you don't. if you proceed to concentrate on a particular virus then surely that denies the reality of terrain being a causative factor?

    it can easily be explained without metaphor, or at least without fear based meta[phor. in general health, viruses serve us...i would say thats obvious. they prevent the departure from natures way. can you understand a thing you fear or feel, in any way, adversarial towards? imo, to view them as an enemy is to misunderstand their role and point and hence prevent, or make difficult, their removal from your system. different, more accurate, speak can be done. just deny yourself the fear angle and you'll find new words that don't "colour" what you're viewing. viewing them as evil invaders, which is the implication, has led to highly toxic treatments that are only invented to destroy the "invader", with little thought, short of killing them, to the host.

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