Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Kinoks γ4 Device Measures Body's Energy Status — Could Be Used to Diagnose ME/CFS

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Hip, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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  2. Bob

    Bob

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    Thanks for posting, Hip. It gives no detail, so impossible to know what to think. I think it's a Russian company.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
  3. Never Give Up

    Never Give Up Collecting improvements, until there's a cure.

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    No U.S. patents turned up in a search of the product name...
     
  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    Detecting "energy status" sounds like a vague pile of BS. And suggesting that it can somehow treat diabetes (again with no specified mechanism) takes it into the realm of fantasy. It's also very suspect that they're marketing it while still supposedly waiting for research, certification, and patenting outcomes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
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  5. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    bullshit.jpg
     
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  6. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    If they publish a study that shows credible evidence that it works, then... Otherwise...
     
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  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It does not describe the precise parameters they are measuring, and I certainly wanted to know more about this; but that does not automatically imply it is bullshit.



    If you read the article, it explains the mechanism: using the device to measure the cellular energy metabolism in diabetes patients, they are suggesting you can get a better handle on the severity of the disease compared to measuring blood sugar levels.

    They say that the severity of diabetes is currently measured by blood sugar levels, but using their device they found a large variation of energy status even for diabetic patients with the same blood sugar levels.

    They are suggesting that measuring cellular energy metabolism in diabetes patients may be a better way to gauge the effectiveness of the patient's current therapy. In this way, you can find the optimum treatment for a given patient.



    Can you explain why you think that is very suspect?
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I think there is only a Russian patent / patent application at present.

    You can search the Russian patent database here.

    I searched this under the name: Georgy Rybalchenko, but could not find the patent.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
  9. Kina

    Kina Admin Support Staff

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    It doesn't seem credible because it doesn't make sense to me. They claim 'we could treat chronic fatigue and diabetes' as well as 'diagnose' chronic fatigue syndrome.

    Many diseases cause extreme fatigue as well as other similar symptoms. How does the 'body's energy status' differ between diseases -- eg, like Cancer, MS, AIDs, Lyme etc? And how about the kind of fatigue depressed people feel or the fatigue that overworked people or those with chronic insomnia. How would the device detect that.

    How would the device (without a patient giving any symptoms) be able to diagnose diabetes, CFS as opposed to all other diseases that result in alterations in 'body energy'.

    Even if the device worked, how would it treat CFS -- it measures energy levels apparently. Many suspect that CFS could be a mitochondrial disorder and even with that, there is no treatment that works. It's like saying a blood test that measures cholesterol, also treats it -- not true.

    It sounds impossible. It's too bad there is no more information.

    Well, it does sound a lot like crap.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
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  10. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    Anyone know what kinoks means in Russian?
     
  11. Bob

    Bob

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    It means "snow drift", according to Google translate.
     
  12. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    Does Russian have an expression for "snowing" people with (vernacular English) BS?
     
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  13. Kina

    Kina Admin Support Staff

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    Снег люди с ерунды = Snow people with nonsense
     
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  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I am not quite sure why words like "bullshit" and "crap" are being so quickly used, when we know almost nothing about the principles behind this device. In a state of ignorance, the best approach is to try to find out more.


    George Rybalchenko (Георгий Рыбальченко in Russian) is a researcher at the Lebedev Physical Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences, which is a leading Russian physics research institute.

    The article says (rather unclearly) that the device "measures how blood oxygenation depends on time". I am not sure what this means precisely, but obviously oxygen is involved in the measurement. But that is all we know about its operation.

    So the first thing to do would be to track down the patent, in order to understand the basic principles of the device.



    By treat, I think they mean the sort of thing I described in this above post.



    Without knowing more about the device, I can't guess at an answer, though I suspect it would not provide a unique biomarker for ME/CFS, but possibly just a confirmatory test that cellularly energy mechanism was impaired. But I am just guessing.

    They are claiming that the device can be used to diagnose ME/CFS, so presumably they must have tested it on ME/CFS patients, and in those tests, the ME/CFS patients must have showed a different cellular energy metabolism compared to healthy controls.
     
  15. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    You don't have much experience in dealing with Russians, do you?

    I had a Russian business partner for a few years until we had a very, very bad falling out. Been to Moscow and Kiev a few times on business trips.

    I've learned to keep my distance from Russians and any of their dealings.
     
  16. Bob

    Bob

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    I think we have learned the hard way to be rather sceptical/cynical about unsubstantiated medical claims. If they really have invented something useful then that's great, but absolutely no scientific information is provided. And the claim that it's useful for a range of illnesses seems rather to good to be true. But, i'll consider any info with an open mind, when they provide it.
     
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  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I appreciate your experience with a dodgy business partner in an era of Russian Gangster Capitalism may have been unpleasant, but I cannot see how this directly reflects on the quality of Russian science.


    Skeptical is good, but assuming bullshit by default when we know little more about this device other than its name seems a tad over cynical.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
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  18. Never Give Up

    Never Give Up Collecting improvements, until there's a cure.

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    It does sound fishy, very little information, language barrier, big claims, etc.

    My son saw a LLMD for a while. He was selling a variety of "treatments" from $15,000/per IV infusion of water with magical properties, to a blood treatment whereby "the blood is circulated out of the body, passed through UV light which would kill all of the pathogens without harming anything else, and then be returned to the body. This device had been used safely and effectively in Russia since the 1940's, and was about to get the OK from the FDA." Uh huh.

    This sales experience has made me wary of exported Russian medicine. I was unable to find any successfully exported medical breakthroughs from Russia to the west during a brief search at the time. Maybe they exist, I didn't look very hard.

    People have been buying cures for as long as people have needed them. Throw in a few "scientific" sounding words and a space age looking box with blue glowing lights and you never know who you may impress.

    Now, in the right hands, magical thinking can lead to impressive scientific breakthroughs. This guy could change the face of medicine. Who knows? I hope so.
     

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