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Kidney Stones

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Suzy, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    I am following the methylation protocol, treating my gut.

    One of the outsomes of this illness for me is kidney stones which i dont think above will address.

    I am pretty sure they are oxalic stone as I had high oxalic acid on my organic acids test.

    i understand from Rich that oxalic can be high in the blood if fat is maldigested because undigested fat binds to calcium which would otherwise bind to oxalic in the gut and prevent too much from being absorbed.

    I'm wondering though, how the oxalic goes on to form stones. Is there something I could be doing to prevent this ?

    I've seen mention of B6/magneium for treating kidney stones. Does anyone knwo how this is related to oxalic acid and kidney stones ?

    I'm getting concerned as they aer getting bigger over time.
     
  2. Min

    Min Senior Member

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    Poor you! Kidney stones are hell. What treatment are you having for them? Have you been offered lithotripsy yet, or are they just being monitored?

    You need to drink lots & lots of water if you are forming stones. More advice here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone


    I had surgery a couple of years ago to remove a very large kidney stone. The urologists had been telling me my symptoms were 'all in my head' for 2 years, even though I'd had hyperparathryroidism (that causes stones) kept vomiting with pain, getting UTIs and my urine was always bright red. Once the letters M.E. are on our medical notes in the UK anything we suffer from is considered hypochondria.

    I really hope you can be successfully teated for these soon.
     
  3. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    Hi there,

    They are nto even being montored! One is now 1.5 cm and I've had 4 ultrasounds (for other resaons) and I've noticed over these 4 ultrasounds they have grown from 1 5mm one to now several, with the largest being 1.5 cm.

    I don'thave any symptoms yet but I'm afraid I will if this is noto addressed.

    I would like to have lithotripsy or get them out by some natural means - I've read on earthclinic.com of people getting them out with lemon juice.

    I have had elevated prolactin in the past ... how did you determine you have hyperparathyroidism ? THis is something I think I should check out due to the stones and the prolactin.

    THanks for replying.
     
  4. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Suzy/Kidney stones

    Hi Suzy,

    I don't have any direct experience with kidney stones - they sound awful and I hope that you find something that helps. Off the top of my head, I know that oxalic acid blocks magnesium absorption, so people who eat a lot of spinach think they are getting more magnesium than they actually get.

    What I can do is type in some information from my book "The Magnesium Miracle" and hope that it helps you or any others who might read it. Good Luck, and please let us know how you are doing.

    "Kidney Stones

    Kidney stones occur when the microscopic debris excreted in the urine becomes too concentrated to pass freely out of the kidneys into the bladder. Kidney stones are quite common in the general population. Risk factors for kidney stones include a history of hypertension chronic dehydration, and a low dietary intake of magnesium.

    snip

    Most kidney stones are made up of calcium phosphate, calcium oxalate, or uric acid. (The kind of stones you have can be determined from an analysis of passed stones.) Calcium stones are seen chiefly in men, often with a family history. Calcium phosphate and calcium oxalate alone are responsible for almost 85 percent of all stones. Uric acid stones make up 5-10 percent of all stones. They are also seen mostly in men, half of whom have gout. The remiaining 5 percent are rare stones that can be formed during kidney infections."

    Diagnosis is made by urinalaysis and X-ray. If there are only a few calcium crystals or small stones, often no treatment may be needed, but pain may be relieved with painkillers and muscle relaxants. Larger stones are treated with surgery or with lithotripsy (the breakdown of the stones into little pieces using special ultrasound machines).

    Several factors can be involved in stone formation:

    1. Elevated calcium in the urine is caused by a diet high in sugar, fructose, alcohol, coffee, and meat. These acidic foods pull calcium from the bone and excrete in through the kidneys. Calcium supplementation without magnesium also causes elevated calcium in the urine.

    2. Higher-than normal levels of oxalate found in the urine may related to a high dietary intake of oxalic-acid-containing foods: rhubarb, spinach, chard, raw parsley, chocolate, tea, and cofee, among others. The oxalic acid in them promotes stone formation by binding to calcium, creating insoluble calcium oxalate.

    3. Dehydration concentrates calcium and other minerals in the urine. Six to eight glasses of water a day are essential to flush the kidneys properly. Increased sweating and not enough water intake create concentrated urine.

    4. Soft drinks contianing phosphoric acid encourage kidney stones in some people by pulling calcium out of the boness and depositing it in the kidneys.

    5. A diet high in purines (substances found in alcohol, meat, and fish) can cause uric acid kidney stones.

    SNIP

    Supplements for kidney stones:

    Magnesium citrate - 300 mg twice per day
    Potassium citrate - 300 mg twice per day
    Vitamin B6 - 50-100 mg daily.

    Take care, Suzy

    Hysterical
     
  5. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    Thanks so much for writing that out HW. I do get enough water. I had a urinalysis done and my calcium was within normal range, so perhaps that rules out hyperparathyroiodism (???).

    It's this high oxalate that seems to be the problem. I did hear on one of hte DAN! talks that certain bacteria break down oxalates in the but, 1 being bifidobacteria so maybe that is the issue as I am low in that one
     
  6. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    LOL! No, I have a soft spot for dogs and cats; I have a cat myself.

    I do need the protein though. What a dilemna. I will try to locate my information on the bifidobacteria and the oxalates. Perhaps that is the key.
     
  7. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    >>

    Hi again Suzy,

    Just hope it helped you. As far as calcium being in the normal range, I don't quite understand how a urinalysis can give you accurate information for that. I am not saying that it doesn't give you accurate information, just that I don't understand that. The amount you excrete can't really tell you how much you have in your bones or tissue which is where it belongs can it? In order to get those answers for myself, I have had an EXAtest done which measures intracellular minerals (magnesium, calcium, potassium, sodium, chloride, and phosphorous).

    I don't have my results back yet, and the company that received the sample called me last week to say they weren't sure the doctor got enough cells on the sample, so I might have to redo it. The cells are taking by scraping inside the mouth just behind the teeth. Sigh, just one more thing to deal with. Very frustrating.

    Good Luck,

    Hysterical
     
  8. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    I'm not sure either HW.

    Yes, good test, I did that as well and it showed low borderline potassium.
     
  9. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    Here is the info on the bifidus and oxalates from Susan Owens talk at the fall 2006 DAN! conference (great source of information)

    - The gut contains a special population of microbes which unlike our own cells are able to metabolize oxalate and render it harmless
    - The population of oxalate eating microbes are often missing in those who develop oxalate related disease or have inflamed intestines
    - Why are these microbes missing ?
    o Antibiotics may have killed bacteria like oxalobacter, formigeoxs (sp?), acidophilus and bifidus
    o The absence of these may leave more oxalate in the inside of the gut and this may irritate those tissues, especially if they are already inflamed. Excess oxalate also effects the way the rest of the microbial community behaves and how it grows
    - Oxalates can be stored in tissues and later leave those tissues, but our bodies also make a small amount of oxalate
    - When certain enzymes aren’t functioning well because of vitamin deficiency or sulfur deficiency, then other enzymes will make dangerous amounts of oxalates out of intermediates such as glycolis acid, glycooxylate, glycine, hydroxypyruvate or hydroxyproline
     
  10. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    OK Suzy, then you probably have the best possible information on which to base your decisions!

    Please keep us updated on how you are doing.

    Take care,

    HW
     
  11. Min

    Min Senior Member

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    Those are big stones Suzy and I don't think you'll get rid of them by diet but would like to be wrong.

    It surprises me that you haven't been offered any treatment or had any symptoms. When is your next appointment? (Prhaps you should make one?) Don't you even have urinary frquency or flank pain?


    The test for hyperparathyroidism are both calcium and parathyroid hormone blood tests and IMPORTANT a 24 hour urine collection to see how much calcium you are losing. Thereafter scans can be done on the 4 parathyroids in your neck to see which one has a benign tumour. The treatment is always surgery to remove the parathyroid with the benign tumour.
     
  12. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    No, I don't think I"ll get rid of them by diet either. But some have reported getting rid of them by using 2 ounce lemon juice on earthclinic.com

    I'm surprised too. Both the doc who ordered the ultrasound who is my CFS doc and my GP won't refer me back to my kidney specialist. And I also tried to get in directly with my kidney specialist and his receptionist insisted on a 2nd referral. But I'm continuing to try to get in to see him. I don't have urinary frequency or flank pain.

    I did the 24 hour calcium and the result was 3.22 with a normal range of 2.5-8

    WOuld it be worthwhile to do the hyperparathyroid test even if the calcium is normal ? I've had prolactin measured 3 times. 2 times it was right at the top of normal and the other time it was in the middle of the normal range.
     
  13. Min

    Min Senior Member

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    Sorry I don't know anything about prolactin testing.

    Can't you pretend to have sickening flank pain in order to obtain a referral?
     
  14. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    Ahhh, good idea, yes, I'll do that.
     

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