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Just found out I'm histamine intolerant, does that mean undermethylated too?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by minniemom2011, Mar 28, 2011.

  1. minniemom2011

    minniemom2011

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    Kerrilyn,

    I had nausea and absolutely horrid headaches from eating anything high in histamine. I also would get very itchy when eating them as well. It's slowing down now, but I still find myself with the headaches quite often - it feels a lot like motion sickness really.
  2. kerrilyn

    kerrilyn Senior Member

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    Yep, I'm having that too, headaches and motion sickness. I'll have to look into high histamine foods and see if I'm eating them too. Thanks.
  3. minniemom2011

    minniemom2011

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    The motion sickness feeling is just horrible, isn't it?!?! If you figure out any natural remedies for it, please let me know! I have a 10-hour drive coming up in less than two weeks and I normally always get car sick as is . . . I can't imagine how this trip is going to go.


    Freddd, Kurt or anyone else who may still be following this thread - Any ideas why the B6 would cause a histamine reaction?
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kurt,

    Only after learning about your own reactions to regular forms that the body can naturally activate, and learning what supporting nutrients you need, would I start experimenting with active forms that force processes.

    But I would start with regular forms. I did that with B6 and also B12 (used cyano form

    I find it an incredibly bizarre semantic usage of calling folic acid and cyanocbl "REGULAR" forms. They are the most oxidized least active forms that exist that work at all, in the case of cyanocbl because of a laboratory mistake that won the Nobel Prize. It is to the real B12 as a Twinkie is to real nutritious food. It is stable. It can sit on the shelf forever because so little will oxidize it further. It is a preferred marketer form because it isn't likely to spoil in any significant way and has a huge shelf life. It is the favored excretion form, the form preferred for excretion by the kidneys after the real b12s have detoxified cyanide. It is "regular" by reason of a lab mistake and being sanctified by a Nobel prize and receiving the name "B12" officially. All others are "b12 analogs". Cyanocbl therapy is the worst possible b12 therapy that works at all. It damn near killed me. If that lab mistake had never happened you and I probably would not be here having this discussion because none of us would be ill with the man-made deficiency diseases from which we suffer. Folic acid was an expedient solution to a difficult problem, not an optimum solution. Merck only recently learned how to make a STABLE form of methylfolate, Metafolin.

    Folic acid doesn't work at all for 20% of population, poorly for another 30% and to a limited extent for the other 50%. An unknown percentage actually find that it causes deficiency, such as me and many people on this forum; at least all those who suffer the mis-named "detox" reaction from folic and/or folinic acid. That is pretty pathetic for the "regular" form. It makes millions ill and kills an unknown number. Cyanocbl allows 2/3 of b12 deficiency symptoms to continue to worsen for 67% of people and 100% of symptoms to worsen for 1/3 of people and helps only up to 1/3 of deficiency symptoms in 2/3 of people. It is estimated that 25% of population in the USA is chronically b12 deficient, 50% of those over 55, with no idea how many are folate deficient. When the REAL b12s, mb12 and adb12 were identified in 1959 it was promptly ignored and buried instead of being trumpeted as a correction of grave scientific error. It took until 1998 for mb12 to actually become available commercially in the USA. What a terrible threat to established businesses it was. I think that this ought to be one of the greatest health care scandals ever. The price we pay in ill health on a nationwide basis is staggering. It is possible that the multitude of diseases contributed to by these two inactive vitamers accounts for 1/3 of healthcare expenses nationwide. It trashed by life. It trashed my mother's life. It was trashing the lives of all three of my children. It was wiping out my family. And you call these the "regular" forms?

    I had terrible neurological symptoms for decades because of these two inactive vitamers.. I am barely remaining out of a wheelchair even now. The induced paradoxical folate deficiency caused by folic/folinic acids is often called "detox" reaction. With NAC "detox" and glutathione "detox" reactions thrown in, both induced severe folate and b12 deficiencies, it makes me wonder if there is any real "detox" reaction.

    The combination of hydroxycbl or cyanocbl and folic or folinic acid causes methylation shutdown as part of the induced deficiencies of folate and b12. This is a cause for methylation block. Folic acid causes methylation shutdown and cell reproduction failure in a few hours in me and people like me. Could this be a cause of actual "toxicity"? One or both of these inactive vitamers are included in hundreds of foods and drinks and flour. How much damage are they doing? Virtually every multivitamin contains both of these. No wonder study after study finds multivitamins cause ill health if they do anything at all.

    You are blaming the wrong things for the problems. I had my first severe health crash shortly after starting things like Special K and Instant breakfast and got worse for the next 40+ years. I have had b12 and folate deficiency symptoms almost my entire life. These may be implicated in virtually every chronic health problem, especially all those that are exploding in frequency and severity in the last 50 years.

    Folic acid and cyanocbl are "normal" just like an MCV that 20 years ago was macrocytotic is now "normal". These two inactive vitamers might be considered "normal" only because of a fraud perpetrated on us all. Let's use some very uncommon common sense on this.
  5. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    That sounds like a possible start-up symptom. When you finally get magnesium and B6 into the body (along with B12), various systems start working again, but sometimes that startup is a bit uneven. I've occasionally had that response with mag chloride, usually when I forgot to eat something with it. You might try reducing dose for a few days, the mag chloride tablets are usually easy to cut or break in half/quarters. There will be symptoms from any methylation support treatment, I think it is just something you have to manage with a graded approach. And the symptoms will change from time to time, sometimes old issues resurfacing briefly. Standard healing response for this type of condition.
  6. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Those are the regular forms of the supplement people use. You may have an argument with the nutritional additives industry, but I think we are on the same side here. Also, I did not include folic acid in that discussion, should have clarified that. I was talking about B6 and B12. Some people do seem to react poorly to the p5p activated B6 form, and seem to do better by starting with regular B6 supplements first, then moving to the more active form when they are tolerating that well. That was my experience.

    And my experience with B12 includes use of all four forms. You have tested these and found what you have described here. I have also tested the four also and do not get the paradoxical reaction from cyano B12 that you describe. Maybe I convert that synthetic form more easily, without the B vitamins I am not as sick as you have described you are without them, I am not one step away from the wheelchair, so to speak. But I have been bedridden before. What pulled me out of that was not B vitamins at all, but a change to a diet that would starve out some of the bugs, and I believe lowered my H2S production. Perhaps that indirectly took load off the methylation system and B12 demand, that is hard to say.

    I guess we all develop our own belief systems around what seems to work for us and those we know. Personally I don't think these commercial vitamins are responsible for this disease, but probably they contribute.

    Also, although cyano is not a preferred form of B12, I find it more tolerable than methyl form, but less effective. Therefore I think it is a good experiment, the worst that can happen is someone will not convert it well so it will be useless. My experience with the non-activated vs. activated forms of these vitamins is that the non-activated forms do help, just not as much. And I prefer to let the body decide how much of something it needs, where possible. With activated forms you may be forcing reactions the body is not ready to tolerate. So I think gradually easing into the use of active forms is wise, particularly for people who are self-treating without medical support.

    I think you raise a good warning about the possibility of paradoxical reactions, some CFS patients will have those and should know that is what is happening. The idea that every reaction is a 'herx' and they just need to push through can be dangerous. I believe the safest approach to a reaction is to reduce dose, slow down, and if that does not stop the problem, change forms of the substance or stop and try something else.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kurt,

    Actually I think you pick a poor example with herx reactions. While they are generally shortlived, a few hours typically, extreme herx reactions can be dangerous. It isn't a matter of pushing through, the dose of antibiotic was taken a few hours ago or a series for a day and then the reaction hits all at once with the sudden death and cellular disruption of the bacterium, often syphilis or other spirochete, releasing serious toxins, all at once. There typically isn't another choice point. And with bacteria one doesn't want partially resistant ones to survive and reproduce, breeding a resistant infection. Playing games like that with antibiotics is very dangerous personally and societally, say trying to kill just the 20% most susceptible with each dose.

    Let me offer some other examples of what I'm trying to say.

    Lets consider the more traditional man caused deficiency diseases; rickets, scurvy, beriberi and pellagra.

    The second wave of rickets was caused by low potency D forms, D2 in combination with low doses and sunblock. This has caused an explosion of D3 supplements in much higher doses, up to 5000iu instead of 400 iu with the legal maximum being 800 iu. Isn't a little bit of rickets good for a person, say 66% or so?

    How about scurvy? Long sea voyages without fresh foods starved people of vitamin C. Ascorbic (anti-scurvy factor) acid works 100% preventing scurvy. The only reason it doesn't work is inadequate dose. When I was young I had spontaneous nosebleeds frequently. There was something wrong with the tissue formation in my nose, and mouth. It was early scurvy symptoms. It is rarely recognized. Frequent spontaneous nosebleeds is a common early sign. After I started 2000mg of C a day I have never had another one since age 23 compared to hundreds from age 2 onwards. Now if there were an almost C that prevented bleeding gums and 1/3 of C deficiency symptoms and sometimes death but not bloody noses and other tissue breakdown would you take that or advocate taking that instead because it's better to not heal all of the things that ascorbic acid does? Isn't dealing with 1/3 of symptoms better than getting rid of all of them?

    Now let's consider beriberi and pellagra. These were invented in the USA (Asian countries by feeding sailors only polished rice) in the 1870s with the invention of the roller mill that made perfect white flour that never spoiled because the wheat germ with it's oil and vitamins was 100% removed. Such perfect white flour doesn't support life. No animal or insect can survive on it. Beriberi (B1 deficiency disease) and pellagra (B3 deficiency disease) were as result.

    Lets say there was B1 and B1a, B1a only preventing 1/3 of beriberi symptoms though usually but not always preventing death. Would you take B1a instead of B1? Could 2/3 beriberi be so bad? So what if some poor suckers with inferior genes out there would die from it. But hey, it's half the cost and lasts forever, so no spoilage losses. It's better for business and we can't disrupt the businesses that are making millions off of it.

    Lets say there was B3 and B3a, B3a only preventing 1/3 of pellagra symptoms though usually but not always preventing death. Would you take B3a instead of B3? Could 2/3 pellagra be so bad? So what if some poor suckers with inferior genes out there would die from it. But hey, it's half the cost and lasts forever, so no spoilage losses. It's better for business and we can't disrupt the businesses that are making millions off of it.

    However, we are not faced with that. B1 and B3, D3 and Vitamin C all 100% prevent 100% of the deficiency symptoms associated with lack of these vitamins, in adequate doses. D2 is losing out in the market place because people have gotten wise to how inferior D2 is.

    So what percentage of people are you willing to write off?

    Cyanocbl works on 1/3 of symptoms for 2/3s of people. All in all it works on 2/9 of person-symptoms. There isn't anything else marketed as a vitamin that is that terrible. It does very little, 1 or 2 or 3 symptoms at out of 300 for 1/3 of people. It won't even save their lives or stop tissue degeneration for these people. The other 2/3 will likely live, but not restored to health. Hydroxycbl is almost as bad. At least it isn't a post detox waste version of disabled b12.

    Folic acid is not much different. It doesn't work at all for 20%, works poorly for 30% and may not be entirely adequate for 50%. In a certain unknown percentage of persons it actually worsens the folate deficiency and blocks methylfolate. For some people, percentages entirely unknown folinic acid is just as bad or worse.

    I was one of those persons along with my entire family that the standards of care based on cyanocbl and folic acid was willing to write off. So sad that they were condemned to a shortened miserable life of illness. Too bad that there is nothing we can do about it.

    Now if there were a stepped approach, such as there is with pain these days, where if symptoms are not reversed within a certain amount of time, the treatment would be upgraded to the next level, that would make sense and wouldn't leave people worsening indefinitely, or were given a choice in the first place and again each month, that would be a different story. There isn't. It isn't done that way. It's if the standard care doesn't work, then you don't have that deficiency so you must have some mystery disease. Because the brainwashing has been so effective most docs don't know that there are any other significantly different choices. Deplin is for tretment of depression, not folate deficiency, Metanx is for treatment of elevated Hcy, not b12/folate/p-5-p deficiencies.

    In writing all these things there is something that came to mind that you ought to know. For years I have read about b12 being different in deficiency than any of the other vitamins and it misleads doctors who are not used to thinking in the unique way b12 and the body interact. With folate, I have had demonstration of 4 different things.


    1. A natural folate deficiency which consisted of ALL the symptoms in a mild way.
    2. An induced folate deficiency via glutathione in which all the symptoms came on like a ton of bricks over a few days.
    3. A slow induced onset over a month with folinic acid with all the symptoms coming on together mildly.
    4. A faster induced onset with folic acid with all the symptoms coming on mildly at first and worsening over some days as more and more become more and more noticeable.
    Note that in every case either all the symptoms were either getting better or worse in concert. Only the speed and severity was different. There was no "treading water" with all the symptoms at once. Either all were improving or all were worsening. It's like either folate processing is on or off, strictly binary.

    B12 is very different. I have seen the effect with b12 described as "triage" by the body. When active b12 is in short supply, some functions will receive ALL of it. Some symptoms will be supported and improve, ie MCV and various blood measures while many others, such as neurological and epithelial and endothelial will be going down. Many researchers and docs not familiar with the triage effect will assume that since blood measures are improving, the deficiency has been handled and everything will be improving together. That is a fatally flawed assumption. B12 does not work that way. It does not work round robin. Some things are maintained and others are totally abandoned. People can die of b12 deficiency with perfectly normal blood work.
  8. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi Minniemom,

    With B6, the dose you took of 50mg sounds like the max to me. You must not overdo B vitamins as the body has trouble excreting excess.
    Also, the body needs vit C as well as B6, so perhaps you didn't get the desired result without the Vit C?

    The best way to diminish the reaction you get from startup is to take daosin and a good antihistamine (I take one called tinset) every day. I saw an immunologist who told me you can perfectly safely go up to three times the max recomended dose on packets of antihistamine provided you don't drive or do anything else that would be dangerous when you are drowsy.

    As to the bad reaction, I got a freaky awful bad reaction at first and I am afraid it lasted quite a while. It was as if I was "destabilised" - previously I had a steady level of what felt like a permanent allergic reaction, then suddenly it went haywire. My chemical intolerances (I have trouble with phenols and other things in perfumes, as well as sulphites) were so bad I had to give up using deodorant and most other products altogether. My eyes itched so much that in my sleep I scratched them till they bled. My face was permanently puffed up adn my eyes were usually running with tears. I had severe headache all the time. I was also so weak I felt practically paralysed. There were some days when I literally could not stand up and walk.

    Once I got going on daosin things improved.

    The most important thing to improve the situation was removing all the substances that provoked allergies and chemical intolerance problems. Do follow that diet religiously (on the link I posted) because cutting out all those foods will make a big difference.
    The other thing that helped was to increase my Vitamin B12 intake up to tuly massive doses. I was injecting it every day. I built this up gradually.
    Check your supplements to make sure you are not taking bioflavonoids of any kind as they make this problem much worse. Also avoid tea, including herbal tea, which are particularly rich in phenols.
    Also I got a cleaning lady who is marvellous at eliminating dustmites and mould from every corner of my house and cleaning everything with products that don't provoke my allergies or my chemical intolerances.

    I nearly forgot the single most important thing. You have to drink at least 4 litres of water a day, preferably more. All the drugs you take and the B12 and B6 and other supplements to help methylation work by making the toxins water soluble so you can pee them out. The more you drink, the faster they will be flushed out of your body and the less you will feel poisoned by them. One doctor memorably said to me - "You can put all the cleaning products you like in the toilet, but it will still be dirty until you flush it."

    Spring time is the worst season for allergies because mould, dustmites, pollen and countless other things have a surge of growth. So I think you would probably be having a worse than usual time right now even without introducing new therapies.

    There is so much info relevant to this that I am finding it hard to pick out the main points. If there is anything I haven't explained clearly, please ask!
    lef07003 likes this.
  9. minniemom2011

    minniemom2011

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    Thanks for all this Athene. I am struggling so much with piecing all this info together that my head is just spinning.

    I am going to hold off on trying any more supplements until I return from vacation. In the meantime I am just trying to avoid all high histamine foods and drink lots of water. Most of the foods are not a problem for me to avoid, but I am on the GAPS diet which is big on meat/bone broth and fermented foods for healing. This sudden histamine intolerance makes that very difficult! Most of the foods that are high in histamine themselves I've been avoiding on GAPS anyway, so that's not too difficult.

    As of now I pretty much eat meat! I need to try testing out some veggies again, but with the sulfur issue that eliminates a lot right there and I'm not sure what else to try.

    Do you find you have to eat meat very fresh or within a day of cooking to avoid a histamine reaction? I've read that can cause problems. I'm still trying to figure out how to work all of this out.

    When this first happened over the weekend and I was at my absolute worst (still drinking broth and eating ferments) my chemical sensitivity was awful too. I nearly vomited at the smell of a lady's perfume in front of me. I definitely don't want to re-experience that if I can help it!

    Oh - and which form of B6 did you take? Was it the active P5P?
  10. kerrilyn

    kerrilyn Senior Member

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    I was taking the mag chloride (liquid form), a B-Right with 25mg B6 and a then added separate 100 mg B6 at the same time. D'oh - too much B6 for me it seems.

    I looked up high histamine foods and I've been eating spinach, tomatoes, raisins, grapefruit and parm cheese this week. An increase in headaches, spacey/motion sickness feeling. I've noticed that the widespread intense burning and somewhat itchy feeling under my skin has returned. It hadn't been a problem since last spring. Last night I had a horrible migraine. I didn't realize high histamine foods could be linked to hypotension, or dysmenorrhea too - that is interesting.

    My mother has a problem with food intolerances, tomatoes/citrus makes her mouth break open. I suspected I've had food intolerances too but nothing I could easily link specific problems too. I must try to not eat high histamine food now and see what happens. In the fall I was prescribed a sulfa antibiotic for the first time and couldn't take it. I had numbness/tingling and chest pains. My mother can't take them either because her tongue swell, so foods high in sulphur are equally a problem I suppose?

    I took Quercetin, a bioflavonoid and green tea last night. I thought Quercetin had antihistimine properties to help with allergic reactions?

    Thanks for the reminder, I was feeling much better when I was drinking more fluids. I'm back to barely drinking any and I'm feeling worse each day.
  11. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hiya Minnimon ,

    Yes, I take the active P5P form of B6. I find it far more effective than the normal form.

    As far as meat goes, I buy it as fresh as possible, but even if it stay in the fridge a while, I don't have problems. Once it is cooked thoroughly, I do eat leftovers the next day and have no problems. The stuff you have to avoid totally is delicatessen meats, sausages, that kind of stuff.
    You also have to be more careful with fish - I find I am fine with frozen fish from trawlers which fillet and freeze the stuff within hours of catching it, but not OK with so-called "fresh" fish from fishmongers which has usually been refrigerated for days, or worse, frozen and then thawed out before selling.

    As far as veg goes, this is a terrible drag isn't it? I eat lots of salad veg like cucumber, grated carrot, maize, lettuce, rocket and other leaves.

    I don't know the GAPS diet, but I can tell you that fermented anything is a total disaster if you are histamine intolerant. That's the single worst thing for me to eat.

    Hello Kerrilyn,

    I read that about quercetin. It seems it has a good effect and a bad effect. That's the problem with most antioxidants for me - they all seem to have one positive and one negative.
  12. Bluebunnies

    Bluebunnies

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    As a newly discovered histamine intolerant person I've found this thread quite interesting. Been reading around a lot on the internet and found this site http://dietarymedicine.blogspot.co.uk/ which actually warns against using vitamin C to lower histamine, I'm going to contact the person for a bit more information, but it can't hurt that much right? and it does seem to help, atleast in the short term.
  13. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    For what it's worth, I've bveen taking9 grammes (yep, 9,000mg) of vitamin C a day for almost 2 years and I have improved pretty marvellously during that time. My allergies and histamine symptoms have gradually diminished (i've changed my diet, not only added vit C) and had no adverse effects whatsoever from the vitamin C.
    My energy levels have increased a lot and various blood results are better too. (Mainly cortisol, which has returned to normal).

    The guy who wrote that article bases the "don't supplement" advice merely on the fact that he's one of those people who think you should not supplement anything unless you have a clinical deficiency diagnosed by blood test. I think very differently, as does my doctor!
  14. Bluebunnies

    Bluebunnies

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  15. ggingues

    ggingues $10 gift code at iHerb GAS343 of $40

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    Interesting, I have been doing 4 to 5 grams of Vitamin C for 2 to 3 years now. I have also made some good improvements. I also take LDN and at least 5,000 IUs of Vitamin D/day up to 10K in the winter.

    GG
  16. dmac

    dmac

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    Anthene,

    Thanks for all this information.

    where did you get the daosin?

    when you started the histamine treatment you got much worse with histamine reactions for a while till all calmed down?

    what methyl treatment where you own, freddd, rich or your own version?
    i was trying pure encapsulation
    mb12/metafolin 800mcg(i am only on 100mcg for now,
    100mcg folinic acid
    1 /32 teas of TMG

    not on hydro or adben b12

    can you tell me your protocol?

    what brand of moly are you on for 400mcg a day?

    do you have sulfur problems? sulfur foods?
    I am not sure it i am or not, I am chelating mercury thought and don't seem to have a problem with dmps (sulfur)
    but maybe the moly will help with that.

    if i think of something else i will write
    thanks so much for helping will all this information.


    i started the mb12/metafolin, folinic acid, TMG this weekend and everything went haywire, i wasn't expected this so i stopped.(did have increased histamine foods)
    should i continue? with reduced histamines foods?
    increase methyl treatment?
    vit c?
    vit b6?

    did you do anything for mitochondria / ATP?
    other b's?
    co factor to methyl?

    thank you so much

    denise
  17. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    How is histamine intolerance diagnosed?
  18. UM MAN

    UM MAN

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  19. dmac

    dmac

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    i haven't read this entire article but have a few years ago. this is so complex and i seem to get confused easy. I will read in entirety but could you tell me what this means

    is it moly + magnesium + S? what is S?

    thanks for the article a good read, complex, lots of information,
    i am a bit overwhemled at the moment and don't know where to start.

    i look at the foods and if i give up histamines, sulfur, salicylates, and all carbs due to candida and other pathogen infections I don't have anything to eat but about 3-4 veg and organic meats and have to be careful with the histamines in meat.
    wow

    thanks
    denise
  20. UM MAN

    UM MAN

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    Yes S = sulphur.
    If you avoid sulfur containing foods, your sulphate levels would be low, and you could be low on PST.
    Can you take MSM, JARROW'S Glucosamine + Chondroitin, or EPSOMS SALTS?

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