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Jonathan Edwards: PACE team response shows a disregard for the principles of science

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Cheesus, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

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    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1359105317700886
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    sb4, Jo Best, Mary and 40 others like this.
  2. BurnA

    BurnA Senior Member

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    Valentijn, Yogi, ballard and 4 others like this.
  3. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

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    Yogi and Jennifer J like this.
  4. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    :cool: :) :thumbsup: :star:

    :star: My thoughts on reading this paper.
     
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  5. PDXhausted

    PDXhausted Senior Member

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    This article is so great it really does deserve its own thread!
     
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  6. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

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    This is my favourite part:

    I'd like to think that Phoenix Rising has had something of a positive impact on our resident rheumatologist!

    Thank you very much for writing this and all your support for patients with ME, @Jonathan Edwards!
     
    sb4, Mary, MEMum and 32 others like this.
  7. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Read it, loved it. Especially the intro, where a bit of personal story (the sort of thing which normally annoys me) did a good job of setting the scene:

    I did wonder if it would have been worth mentioning the trial's poor results for their objective outcomes?

    Thanks a lot to @Jonathan Edwards for standing up for patients on this, and all his work on PACE advocacy. Slowly... making... progress...
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
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  8. dangermouse

    dangermouse Senior Member

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    Indeed, massive thanks to Jonathon Edwards for all that he does & for this impressive piece :thumbsup:
     
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  9. suseq

    suseq

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    @Cheesus Thanks for highlighting, and huge thanks to @Jonathan Edwards for this superbly incisive article that supports and explains previous criticism. Hopefully it will be widely circulated and reported, and become yet another game changer.
     
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  10. greeneagledown

    greeneagledown Senior Member

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  11. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Save PR. Sack the President of the Board.

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    Has anyone got access to a copy of Simon Wessely and Brian Everitt's 'Clinical Trials in Psychiatry'.
    I refuse to waste £80 on it, and being housebound don't have access to a University library.

    I'd be interested to know whether they point out the unscientific nature of unblinded trials with subjective outcome measures. (or any of the other flaws like conflicts of interest, changing recovery criteria etc)

    If so, Wessely himself has condemned PACE before it started.

    If not, he clearly doesn't understand science. This would help to explain why so many appallingly bad papers are published about ME by psychiatrists and psychologists, and also explain the well known crisis of replicability of psychological research.
     
  12. AndyPR

    AndyPR RIP PR :'(

    I know it's old school but would it be possible to request it through your local library? Only suggesting that as there seems to be a blitz against Sci Hub at the moment :(
     
  13. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    I had no idea Wessely had actually written a book on clinical trial methodology!

    Everitt & Wessely are to be congratulated on producing an excellent guide to help overcome the snags in clinical trial research. Clearly written and in an engrossing style, the book is likely to become a classic textbook on clinical trials, and not just in psychiatry. The authors’ enthusiasm and grasp of clinical trial research make for a gripping and insightful read…it is one of the very best books that has been written on clinical trials.” THE BRITISH JOURNAL OF PSYCHIATRY

    "The experience of both authors in this area gives the book a very pragmatic approach grounded in reality, with theoretical overviews invariably being followed by practical examples and applications… an invaluable companion to anyone involved in, or contemplating undertaking, clinical trials research.” PSYCHOLOGICAL MEDICINE

    Reading between the lines of both comments is interesting. I guess overcoming snags is how to get round the fact you cannot do a trial that way. I can hear the editorial board of BJP going for it big time - 'you can do it that way cos they say so'.

    A very pragmatic approach might I suppose mean not worrying too much about theory but just getting on with it even if you have no idea of methodological principles.

    Oh your majesty, how your clothes do shimmer, or at least everyone says they do.
     
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  14. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

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    I just found this at the bottom of one of Wessely's papers on trial methodology:

    Link (PDF)

    I suggest Wessely and Horton take their own advice.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
  15. user9876

    user9876 Senior Member

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    Brian Everitt is a statistician so I assume he covered the stats parts. I've found his book on cluster analysis very useful as well as one on multi-variate data analysis that he wrote with Graham Dunn (who was the statistician for FINE).
     
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  16. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Lots of books - including the one mentioned above - can be found at Library Genesis:

    http://gen.lib.rus.ec
     
  17. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    I have the book in question. Very low quality work. I searched it previously for any quotes that could be used against PACE and didn't find any.
     
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  18. Yogi

    Yogi Senior Member

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    It has taken me a while to get round to read this. So much going on now.

    I agree wholeheartedly wth all the above commenters.

    Thank you so much @Jonathan Edwards. This is an amazing article. You cover a lot of good issues and flaws in one article.

    I love the last paragraph.

    How on earth can anyone make such errors and still not be able to see its flaws. These guys are professors and have got all sorts of awards and now are acting like they do not understand basic concepts. Are they really expecting us to believe that they cannot genuinely understand these issues.

    Well this quote sums up the whole sorry sage of PACE:

    'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'

    To prove this point, the PACE authors have had the most egregious and most unusual financial undisclosed conflicts of interest in medicine with the DWP and insurance companies which they did not disclose to participants. They have saved billions for insurers and governments and sick and disabled patients have lost that same amount, and would continue to do so.

    They would have gotten away with it if hadn't been for THE MEDDLING KIDS (like you and all the other patient and scientist critics)



    Thank you @Jonathan Edwards for being on PR providing your ongoing advise, Thank you for supporting patients, Thank you for the article!!!
     
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  19. user9876

    user9876 Senior Member

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    In itself the absence of quotes suggests the book is poor in that it doesn't cover some of the basics for bias in measurements. I do wonder if he really doesn't understand the arguments but I do find that hard to believe of someone in his position. But then people who are good at politics can do very well in academia (and business) even when they have no clue.
     
  20. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Save PR. Sack the President of the Board.

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    Just rather rashly clicked on this - message - access blocked... high court... (can't remember the rest - not going back to check!)
     
    ladycatlover and Binkie4 like this.

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