Jim Faas comments on 'renowned' PACE trial

[Grigor]

Hmm ok, I'll take more notice next time I read an interview. Let's hope they find some clues when the results from Norway are out.

And yes, he's a mad man...

 

[Valentijn]

Thanks. Maybe I'm being unfair because of problems with the translation, but the Dutch defenders of PACE/BPS/etc seem noticably less bright than White/Crawley/Wessely/etc.

It's a different culture in the Netherlands. The government might like to play games to save money, but they often have trouble selling anything ridiculous to the public. Most people are very practical and wouldn't tolerate bullshit.

I think there's also less of a tendency to view women as being prone to hysteria or weakness. Women don't often work full time here, but they are usually the head of the household. As a lawyer from the US, I was shocked to be (gently) criticized by someone involved in my integration as being "too passive" So women are fairly dominant here, and the Dutch people are fairly outspoken - so anyone spouting bullshit would be getting quite a tongue-lashing.

The exception has been in the medical profession, though again that's probably due to the position of doctors in a social hierarchy. But even a senior quack neurologist I had the misfortune to see was getting openly mocked by med students online regarding his claims of magical cures using placebo or whatever. So perhaps there's more of a need to keep the psychosomatization of disease a bit more subtle and hidden here.

The other factor is that there were 5 years of Q-fever outbreaks somewhat recently, with many of the survivors developing a disease very similar (if not the same as) ME/CFS. That was all over the news for a while, which created a lot of public awareness. And the Dutch would simply reject the suggestion of a psychosomatic response to a real illness occurring in a large number of people across the country. Because that explanation is obviously stupid

 

[Alvin2]

It's a different culture in the Netherlands. The government might like to play games to save money, but they often have trouble selling anything ridiculous to the public. Most people are very practical and wouldn't tolerate bullshit.

I think there's also less of a tendency to view women as being prone to hysteria or weakness. Woman don't often work full time here, but they are usually the head of the household. As a lawyer from the US, I was shocked to be (gently) criticized by someone involved in my integration as being "too passive" So women are fairly dominant here, and the Dutch people are fairly outspoken - so anyone spouting bullshit would be getting quite a tongue-lashing.

The exception has been in the medical profession, though again that's probably due to the position of doctors in a social hierarchy. But even a senior quack neurologist I had the misfortune to see was getting openly mocked by med students online regarding his claims of magical cures using placebo or whatever. So perhaps there's more of a need to keep the psychosomatization of disease a bit more subtle and hidden here.

The other factor is that there were 5 years of Q-fever outbreaks somewhat recently, with many of the survivors developing a disease very similar (if not the same as) ME/CFS. That was all over the news for a while, which created a lot of public awareness. And the Dutch would simply reject the suggestion of a psychosomatic response to a real illness occurring in a large number of people across the country. Because that explanation is obviously stupid

Very impressive
Now the big question, can you export that common sense to the US?

 

[Sean]

So perhaps there's more of a need to keep the psychosomatization of disease a bit more subtle and hidden here.

Prof van der Meer doesn't seem to have received that memo, or ignored it if he did.

Either way suits me.

 

[lansbergen]

Women don't often work full time here, but they are usually the head of the household.

That seems tradition. Both my grandmothers were and I am 72.

 

[Solstice]

That seems tradition. Both my grandmothers were and I am 72.

Yeah it is, in my family there are nothing but strong women who have a huge say in how the household is run. My grandparents are all dead, but my grandmothers ran the household for as far as I know. My psychologist sister in law regularly mocks how "science" is conducted in her particular branch by the way.

 

[Valentijn]

Prof van der Meer doesn't seem to have received that memo, or ignored it if he did.

They still believe in it, but they end up promoting it in weird ways. And they face some limitations which the British quacks don't. Eg, I don't think they ever got away with using something as absurd as Oxford criteria, and they haven't been able to hide data, such as the Wiborg actometer results. Due to the obvious absurdity of their underlying theories, they might not talk about them much, so it looks a lot weaker when they make claims about CBT/GET.

 

[Solstice]

Just wanted to point out btw, Tuller has joined the cause because of a massive uprising. Faas has joined the cause through James Coynes angry rants. The biggest piece in our favor came after Coyne's insults to certain "researchers". Angry uprising seems to be far more effective than subtle refuting of false claims.

 

[Sean]

Angry uprising seems to be far more effective than subtle refuting of false claims.

Not on its own. There has to be a solid base of rigorous on-the-formal-record refuting before the angry bit will work.

Which there is in this case.

 

[Yogi]

It would be great if a dutch speak could translate these articles and perhaps put in comments section of article as it would give a wider readership. Google Translate is not very good.

Does anyone know who/what Jim Faas is? I heard he is some sort of insurance doctor but I don't fully understand and am surprised if he is speaking out at PACE?