I'm talking about supps. I have been playing with these things for over ten years and with my lack of info, lack of logging of progress. I probably have been spinning wheels or most likely caused more harm than good. Now this forum seems like a place I can get pointers in the right direction. What inspired me was a viewing of this thread :http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-gorilla-in-the-room.20229/page-5#post-355679 And also reading about deplin only treatment of depression on another board. I think my negative energy and mood states are quite heavily influenced by organic factors, though like many people the self talk side of things could also do with a bit of help. Anyway just reading around here for now and giving you a bit of background. Was into sports type stimulant products for a few years then fairly burnt out. General fatigue, average moods, probably subtle to medium CFS like. Adrenal fatigue? Yes something along those lines but some people say adrenals can't be fatigued. I found advice somewhere about caffeine improving fatigue like symptoms and PEM which I was getting. I found it improved my life. At some times I overdid it, say 600mg+ a day. Though probably averaged 400-500mg per day. Early this year went to hospital for an unrelated matter, lost a lot of fat and muscle, squashed my hormonal axis and had to get back on my feet. When returning from hospital I found I couldn't tolerate caffeine anymore. More prone to anxiety/panic which I felt was fair enough considering my system was buggered from the extreme and sudden loss of weight and screwing my hormones. So I adopted a caffeine free life bar some chocolate. I am doing ok on this low caffeine life now but it took a while to get myself better. I reintroduced the stock standard supps that most people seem to use. Though now I am more "clean" in my usage i.e. low stim, I think some things I am taking are making me feel worse. In general I think I am a good converter towards adrenaline and overmethylator more than an under. I have been taking approx 150mcg of methylfolate twice a day with food. 1g of TMG 3 times a day with food. Based on reading that people take far less TMG here I am going to wind it back. Perhaps to no TMG for now. I took 900mg of methylfolate on an empty stomach yesterday and although it might have been placebo like worrying's I found it made me feel too anxious/worrisome. Though then I read that Fredd says you gotta push through that to higher doses... I have also been taking approx 500-1000mcg MB12 sublingually twice a day. I don't know if it is the best idea but I was thinking to swap the same amount of dibencozide instead. So from yesterday I am off the methylfolate for now. Off the TMG. Switching to dibencozide. Will probably reintroduces modest amounts of MTF and TMG back in later. Rest off the stuff pretty stock standard. I found Hip's thread about NAG last year. NAG seemed to induce a more mushy serotonin like feel last year when I was taking caffeine but this year when I have reintroduced it I don't get any effect. Aiming for a more relaxed, less burnt out energy. And in general, less fatigue! Anyway lets see how this goes. By the way, when I first got into MB12 and MTF I didn't notice much of a change, but the caffeine was such a strong modulator for me that it seemed to override any noticeable changes from any removal or introduction of supps.