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The Chronic Fatigue Initiative and Interview with Mady Hornig
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Is XMRV a New Paradigm for CFS?

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by gracenote, Apr 7, 2010.

  1. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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    Ladies & gentlemen, the Kurt & Gerwyn show is in recess for 24 hours (or more maybe?).

    Fear not, the entertainment probably continues somewhere else on this site (anyone found it?).

    re above, Gerwyn, is that fact? Some say not. Seems it has yet to be corroborated.

    Though I do agree, it shouldn't take so long to confirm or disprove it.....but it is.

    Gerwyn, your "dispute" with Kurt seems to centre on whether he is qualified to comment or not. Well, what a sad world it will be if we all have to have certain letters after our name in order to comment on certain things. Like you have to be Alex Fergusson (M o MU) to judge whether Wayne Rooney was really injured or not.

    Brainpower, creativity, logic, collaboration....that's what we need. If you, Gerwyn, Kurt , and all the other brains on this forum (present company EXCLUDED) could get your heads together CONSTRUCTIVELY, then we might make some progress. We can't wait for the research community to do it, they have their own agendas, not ours.

    Gather that energy and that intelligence. Direct it. Make it work. Please.

    F
  2. Stuart

    Stuart Senior Member

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    Science does not run by consensus, it works by accepted working models, some controversial models, and disruptive ideas.

    Prevalent ideas are structured into working models and supported by groups who have similar views (Here there are authority structures, academic and institutional). Theoretical, experimental, and applied groups work to prove, disprove, or expand upon these models. Individuals with novel ideas create a disruptive force to all models, if the idea proves useful, a new model or modification to existing models may soon be needed for them to remain relevant.

    There is no cookbook or linear process in science, it is not authoritarian nor is it deterministic. Real science is messy; change often comes from unexpected or even unrelated sources. The attempt to impose Authority can be counterproductive and is often used to support ideology or special (often financial) interests.

    A good primer on science and the on the real scientific process can be seen here: http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/howscienceworks_01 (Easy, Fun Version! It is like a CBT [computer based training], but there is no test. I promise!).

    In regards to medicine there is a difference between research/theory and practice/application. While both theory and practice move forward with a great deal of unknowns and variables unaccounted for, in practice there is a tension between doing what is pragmatic and what is ideal. In the most desperate cases, novel approaches are tried with what might be called an informed hunch. On the personal basis, both physician and patient understand the need for individuation (exceptions to standard model).

    As a human enterprise, ego and material interests often interfere with our ideals of how things work. Greed, Corruption, Ignorance, and Incompetence are as present in this endeavor as any other. We all have experienced professionals who are either competent or not, on a mission - or merely running a business; those who are out to solve a problem - or just stay employed or maximize earnings.

    For many of us (at least in the U.S.) our education in science and history is poor. We need a better basis in both and in critical thinking skills (not test taking skills) to make good decisions and discern between claims (especially by some claimed experts). For an interesting read on scientific method, theory, history, debate, evidence, and adjudication see: www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/HowScien.pdf (a bit denser read, no pretty pictures!).


    We need to understand now more than ever when our future is determined by what we choose to believe about science, technology and what claims are made; especially from those with financial interests at stake.


    Think for yourself!

    Or be subject to the tyranny of


    [​IMG]
  3. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    My feelings exactly!

    Thank you!

    Sing
  4. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

  5. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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    Thanks, Sing, and sorry if the Wayne Rooney refererence was too esoteric for trans-atlantic cultures....and too sub-intellectual for this thread!
  6. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    Fingers, I don't know Wayne Rooney. I don't know a lot of stuff. But you made your point and I fully agree with this:

    "Brainpower, creativity, logic, collaboration....that's what we need. If you, Gerwyn, Kurt , and all the other brains on this forum (present company EXCLUDED) could get your heads together CONSTRUCTIVELY, then we might make some progress. We can't wait for the research community to do it, they have their own agendas, not ours.

    Gather that energy and that intelligence. Direct it. Make it work. Please."
  7. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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  8. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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  9. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I agree fingers. Especially since there isn't much 'energy' out here in the first place.

    How to acheive this...I don't have the answer to that. Hopefully others will chime in.

    d.
  10. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

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    Very nice summing up Stuart of our situation. Nice resources too. Thank you!

    And of course, NO discussion on the problems of claiming scientific authority would be complete without Cartman in a police costume.
  11. bel canto

    bel canto Senior Member

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  12. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

  13. Knackered

    Knackered Guest

    Can't please everyone Gerwyn. I'm sure many more people appreciate your posts than people who do not.
  14. starryeyes

    starryeyes Senior Member

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    I appreciate your posts Gerwyn. I think you make good points and I applaud you for standing up for what you believe. You often put into words what I'm thinking.
  15. bel canto

    bel canto Senior Member

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    Gerwyn, I also appreciate your posts, and support your efforts to correct erroneous information. As well as pointing out what is speculation. Particularly when that speculation is done without regard to the actual science and by someone without a scientific background. I personally believe that Kurt has the right to say whatever he wants, but I will absolutely defend the rights of those who challenge the basis of what he says.

    I've learned a great deal from your explanations. Thank you.
  16. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

  17. fingers

    fingers Senior Member

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  18. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Gerwyn,

    I don't think that either you or Kurt are engaged in "polemic point scoring" or are doing anything else than an honest attempt to tackle this from different angles.

    Rather than being entertained by both of you, I am learning a great deal and am very grateful for your attempts to keep this going.
  19. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

  20. Adam

    Adam *****

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    I too have a learned a lot from Gerwyn and Kurt. We should do everything we can to continue to support their exchanges. I also think, even those of us like me who have no scientific background, are able to distinguish between opinion and fact. However, it does help when whoever is posting makes it clear whether or not they are stating their own opinion, a widely held belief, or in fact, indisputable fact. Is there such a thing? Oh no let's not go there.

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