Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Is twisting the wrists while sleeping some kind of symptom?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gondwanaland, Feb 28, 2015.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Critterina , alicec posted an updated oxalate list at the oxalate thread (link in my sig).

    This week I took Milk Thistle 4 days in a row b/c I wanted to lower estrogen, and on the 5th day I woke up hugging myself really thightly :confused: Then I stopped taking it. I noticed I shouldn't take it more than 3 days in a row.
     
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  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    New insight gained from this posting by @Violeta

    Milk Thistle is a Phase I inducer! It should be combined with a Phase II activator o_O

    Details in the document "The Liver" below in my sig, pages 7-8.
     
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  3. Waldemath

    Waldemath

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    I also do this. I was taking Milk Thistle 300mg/day for a few months but stopped because I thought it was making me feel sick. Now I take a small amount which is included in my multivitamin. Maybe 1/10th that amount? My wife takes 300mg/day and also has the wrist curling thing. I always thought it was due to stress and muscle tension, but maybe it is the Milk Thistle.
     
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  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    While the insight gained from @Violeta convinced me that Milk Thistle exacerbates toxicities by stimulating liver Phase I, and by products accumulate and recirculate waiting for (too slow) liver Phase II to process them, this past night I reached new conclusions about sleeping positions...

    Yesterday before bedtime I took a probiotic mix containing L. casei that I hadn't taken in several weeks. We know that casei (and bulgaricus) raise histamines, but since my mix hopefully also contains some histamine-degrading strains, I wasn't worried about the issue.

    About 1.5 hours later I had a maddening itchy bout in my lower calves, felt too warm overall, and spent the whole night tossing and turning, changing positions, and preferring to sleep on my stomach which is very unusual lately, especially in the 'FALCON SLEEPING POSITION' (formerly known as the 'partial swastika sleeping position') .

    So Crit, it would be no surprise if your strange sleeping position was an expression of high histamine, would it? o_O
     
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  5. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    That you for the application of the Phase I/milk thistle, I hadn't been thinking about the milk thistle and on and off take some Bio Ray Liver life that has some in it, I'll have to see what type of reaction I have.

    I do, I do, I do sleep with my wrists curled, but in the manner that someone else explained, curled in towards my body and then placed under my chin. I try to break the habit because I have gone through a stage when my wrists were very painful and realized that I was doing that. Sometimes it's very hard to fall asleep without being in that position.

    I've been having difficulty sleeping for about 2 weeks now, and need to figure out what the problem is. I have been eating white rice and gluten free granola, and since rice is still giving me insomnia in the middle of the AM hours, I am cutting that out today, but the arsenic link to sleep issues is interesting.

    I've been tossing and turning, and I think it also has something to do with the vagus nerve. I'm glad to find this thread for all the interesting thoughts from all the brainstorming.
     
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  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I've been eating fish lately, and just last week started to eat some fatty fish, and just this week I am having wrist pain! How interesting!

    It's always so hard to know what's right, some people say fish oil is the best thing for you!

    I don't know what I'm going to eat! I am also thinking that I have to get some uric acid out of my body, sometimes that makes me contort my whole body when trying to get to sleep.

    Who would have thought there were other people out there with this similar issue!
     
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  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    No kidding???!!! :jaw-drop:
    We stopped taking fish oil anyway, but the wrist thing showed up when taking Milk Thistle. I took fish oil + Gamma E for over a year with only benefits. Then stopped them, took Gamma E once and felt almost suicidal the following day (same for DH) :confused:

    I blamed uric acid for a long time (and mine and DH's are indeed on top of the range), but then I uncovered oxalates, which made much more sense for a number of other issued I had in the past as well.
     
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  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Yes, that is how @Sherlock described and how my husband was also doing. Milk Thistle was the culprit. Perhaps some uric acid too, and definetly oxalates.

    Toss and turning = histamines. I am so glad I have a mix of low HIT probiotics! But then it makes me sleep like a log for 10 hours :rolleyes:
     
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  9. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    When I am having the sleepless tossing and turning I'll have to use that time wisely and go through what I've eaten during the day.

    I don't eat too many oxalate containing foods, but I did start making a coconut curry again, maybe that's it, it has a carrot and some spinach in it. I'll have to see where turmeric stands. It's good for reducing phase 1 detox, but I forget if it's high in oxalates.

    I'm drinking a cup of decaf coffee right now with some good heavy cream and it's helping my brain feel a little better.
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    coconut is low oxalates
    carrot is high oxalates
    spinach is very high oxalates
    turmeric is very high oxalates

    The Trying Low Oxalates Yahoo Groups has a list of tested supplements and the Jarrow brand of curcumin extract is low oxalate per capsule. But turmeric is very high. DH and I reacted horribly to it - it felt like we had flea bites all over our bodies :eek::dog:
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/5/1262.full
    Effect of cinnamon and turmeric on urinary oxalate excretion, plasma lipids, and plasma glucose in healthy subjects
     
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  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Wow, thank you so much. I can see that I have probably been messing myself up. I'mglad at least coconut is low oxalates. I actually have a curcumin tincture, but it was nice to think that I could use something in food. Amazing that you felt like you were getting bug bites from it, I guess it was doing something to nerve endings??? Maybe feeding the bugs that live at your nerve endings, lol. (only kidding,of course)

    I was just looking through homeopathic materia medica for a reason for my recent terrible edema around my eyes, and arsenic was one of the choices. I looked it up and I have more than one of the symptoms. I had been eating some white rice, as I said earlier, but not a whole lot. I never really thought that rice could have enough to actually cause problems, although I have noticed for a long time that I don't do well with it.
     
  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Violeta likes this.
  13. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Arizona, USA
    Yes, actually, it would be a huge surprise. I have overall life-long low/normal histamine in my body/blood. If you read a description of histadelia and describe the opposite, that's me.

    My "strange sleeping position", as you say, is well known within medicine as having genetic/neurological causes and being related to night terrors. It has been with me since childhood.

    My histamine intolerance has nothing to do with my body producing histamine (and so, antihistamines do nothing for it.) It has entirely to do with dietary histamine. The only thing that dietary histamine does to my sleep is because of the secondary effect on sleep of not being able to breathe. So, waking gasping for breath is the sort of effect dietary histamine has on my sleep, but not my positions.

    For the first few months when I became histamine intolerant (age 52), I didn't get any deep sleep at all, and thus had better control over my sleep positions because I was always sort of aware. I remember this because it was the first time I was able to remove my carpal tunnel syndrome braces and not risk cranking my wrists over and pushing them up under my chin.
     
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  14. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Do you find it strange that a spice, turmeric, high in oxalates are good for cancer? There has to be something else to the oxalate story, but I don't know what it is.
     
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  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Perhaps it is even due to high oxalate being given to oxalate-sensitive people that it doesn't work 100% of the time.

    Not everyone has oxalate problem.

    Curcumin is the magical ingredient.
     
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  16. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    That's what I'm talking about, not everyone has oxalate problem, so if oxalates in foods were poison, everyone would have the problem. Even I didn't have the problem until a certain point in my life. I tend to think of oxalate sensitivity as a clue instead of thinking of oxalates as a poison and cause of disease. Maybe there is a way to overdo high oxalate foods, but the extreme sensitivity to average amounts might be a sign that something else is wrong.
     
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  17. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    I couldn't agree more.
     
  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Well, from reading the forums here and Yahoo Groups about chelation and diets for almost 2 years now, I see that when one starts detoxing one goes through several stages, or phases, of intolerances :ill:
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I also agree that avoiding oxalates won't solve my problems, and I am working on it and trying to find out how to resolve it.
     
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  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    If you figure it out, let me know. I'm not quite so sensitive now, but for sure I have a way to go.
     

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