Is this a reaction to Buhner's herbs ?

[Hanna]

After more than a year on ABX + Cowden herbs, I have switched to Buhner's protocole as I was not satisfied with results.

I began to introduce one herb at a time mid october.
Japanese Knotweed was the first, Samento instate of cat's claw as second, eleutheroccocus third. And though I have ramped up slowly to the minimum standard dose, I have noticed worsening in my condition :
- worsening of exhaustion and O.I
- fibro pain XXXL (hardly had fibro with ABX), pain like acids in muscles to the point I have to lie-down most of my day
- Sjogren type symptoms like dry mouth and eyes (were gone previously)
- severe air hunger and chest pressure
- body temp decreased of 1-1.5 degree
- general functioning decreased from 30-40/100 to 10-20/100 in 1 month

I don't know what is the culprit, as I have lately experimented also returning of babesia symptoms those two last months (heavy night sweats, dry cough, air hunger, "spiral" thoughts) with the heaviest symptoms at full moon.
On the other hand I have began Buhner's herbs at the same time (I plan to introduce cryptolepis for babs).

Is this reaction known to someone here with Buhner's protocole ?
I have experimented worsening right from the introduction of Japanese Knotweed, so I tend to think I may react to it (in Chinese medicine it is known as a cooling herb --> body temp decrease ?).
Some thoughts ?
Thanks in advance !

 

[Martial]

Yes, you can react to the protocol regardless of the type of herb, or doctors program you follow. I.e. Buhner, Cowden, Zhang.. You just need to bring the doses down a bit as it sounds like you are aggravating things by taking too much, too soon. Sida Acuta and Houttuynia are definitely useful for babs. Sida Acuta works for lyme directly and other co infections as well. Crypto is similar to Sida Acuta though. I am on the Buhner protocol too, when I push too hard, and fast with doses I tend to feel more symptoms until I bring it down to a more tolerable level.

 

[Hanna]

Thanks Martial !

I have taken artemisimin/Artemisia annua and houttuynia prior to begin my new Buhner schedule for babesia.
Today was my first attempt to introduce cryptolepis (I have also sida acuta but according to muscle testing, the effect is not positive for now). How bitter it is !!! But it seems my body agrees with it.
I will apply your advice and bring the dose of Japanese Knotweed down, maybe it will do the trick.

Do you take each herb apart or mix some tinctures together ? Do you know if there is some impact on efficiency/ tolerance?
Untill now I have taken all of them one by one with water, with a delay of 15 mns in between, but the whole procedure is tiring with so many products and makes me drink too much.

 

[Dufresne]

Thanks Martial !

I have taken artemisimin/Artemisia annua and houttuynia prior to begin my new Buhner schedule for babesia.
Today was my first attempt to introduce cryptolepis (I have also sida acuta but according to muscle testing, the effect is not positive for now). How bitter it is !!! But it seems my body agrees with it.
I will apply your advice and bring the dose of Japanese Knotweed down, maybe it will do the trick.

Do you take each herb apart or mix some tinctures together ? Do you know if there is some impact on efficiency/ tolerance?
Untill now I have taken all of them one by one with water, with a delay of 15 mns in between, but the whole procedure is tiring with so many products and makes me drink too much.

Samento/Cat's Claw is the one that usually produces a flare.

Japanese Knotweed is used to relieve the inflammation of the disease. If anything you want to increase it.

I've always taken my herbs together and they seem to work just fine.

 

[Hanna]

@Dufresne , Thank you for your insight. I will try to take the herbs together and see what happens...

That's weird that I began to feel really poisoned when introducing the Jap. Knotweed, though it is well known -as you write- for its anti-inflammatory use. And paradoxaly, I have been tolerating Samento quite well for more than a year, with pause from time to time. Don't know what to think. No logic here.

 

[Martial]

Thanks Martial !

I have taken artemisimin/Artemisia annua and houttuynia prior to begin my new Buhner schedule for babesia.
Today was my first attempt to introduce cryptolepis (I have also sida acuta but according to muscle testing, the effect is not positive for now). How bitter it is !!! But it seems my body agrees with it.
I will apply your advice and bring the dose of Japanese Knotweed down, maybe it will do the trick.

Do you take each herb apart or mix some tinctures together ? Do you know if there is some impact on efficiency/ tolerance?
Untill now I have taken all of them one by one with water, with a delay of 15 mns in between, but the whole procedure is tiring with so many products and makes me drink too much.

I take them together but some herbs are best not to take at the same time, so it depends on which ones you are using. I often take for example: Japanese Knotweed, Andrographis, Rhodiola, and Eleuthero Root together in powder form, and just get 8 oz of water and take it all at once. Taste is something beyond awful this way though haha. You shouldn't need to do it with that much effort between doses, its only a very few select herbs that are better to take separately, none of which were discussed on this thread. What I like to do though, is say if I am currently taking 6-8 different herbs. I would take 3 to 4 at one time taken twice a day, and take the other 3 to 4 at least a few hours later twice a day as well. That way I get a total of four doses of herbs throughout the day, and space certain herbs out so I don't bombard my system with everything at once.

 

[bertiedog]

@Hanna Japanese Knotweed made me much worse and I put this down to the fact it is a potent vasodilator and possibly duretic which is the last thing I need as I suffer with POTS which is largely controlled by a low dose betablocker and occasional fludrocortisone. JK messed this up completely and also gave me horrendous migraine due to the vasodilation.

This doesn't seem to be pointed out very often but if one suffers with OI or POTS then it can make you considerably worse and its nothing to do with herxing!

Pam

 

[bertiedog]

@Hanna Forgot to say it's the same for Samento and high dose Cats Claw too (vasodilator).

Pam

 

[Martial]

@Hanna Japanese Knotweed made me much worse and I put this down to the fact it is a potent vasodilator and possibly duretic which is the last thing I need as I suffer with POTS which is largely controlled by a low dose betablocker and occasional fludrocortisone. JK messed this up completely and also gave me horrendous migraine due to the vasodilation.

This doesn't seem to be pointed out very often but if one suffers with OI or POTS then it can make you considerably worse and its nothing to do with herxing!

Pam

In cases like that Stephania is usually preferred.

 

[Hanna]

I tolerate now the whole Buhner protocole very well and see some improvement -small but steady.

I have a question for the "specialists" : on a French forum I was told that Buhner in his Lyme book (that I don't have, I am waiting for the new edition now) advises to stop the eleutheroccocus 15 days every month or two, when doing the core protocole.

I have been taking the whole stuff (with babesia herbs) without any pause from October. So I decided to make a pause with the eleutherococcus and see what happens. Guess what ? energy is plummeting.

So I would like to know first if someone else can confirm that this advice is indeed in Buhner's book, if it is an option or not. And what has been your experiment with "pulsing" the eleutheroccocus 1-2 months "yes", 15 days "no" etc.

Thanks for your answer !

 

[Dufresne]

@Hanna

He recommends dosing for 30 to 60 days then taking a two week break. "Then repeat if necessary." p 398

I've just started with the herb so can't relay any experience. I'm guessing it's like coming off any kind of stimulant: it sucks for a few days. But it'll probably work better when you get back to it.

If it feels really bad you might want to develop your own schedule to minimize this. Junkies play around with dosing to manipulate their tolerance. I've known some who take 1-2 days off per week and five off every month. It's a matter of finding what works best.

 

[Hanna]

Thanks @Dufresne. You're right, I think that for the next round, I will test one week off every month. Seems more tolerable.