is there any medical basis to Freddd's protocol?

[pemone]

@pone where are you located? I have one in New York, about 2 hours outside of the city

I am in California, but my osteopaths are all over the US. I don't have any problem with working remotely. If the person has a web site talking about their SNP experience, post that.

 

[Aerose91]

I am in California, but my osteopaths are all over the US. I don't have any problem with working remotely. If the person has a web site talking about their SNP experience, post that.

She has a website but it doesn't talk about specifics like snp's. Her name is Sheryl Leventhal and works out of Hudson Valley Medicine. Her and her nutritionist, Jill, are well versed in methylation.

 

[Aerose91]

Establishing that Kruse's protocol is the cause of a specific chain of events requires more than just feeling good. The protocol might make you feel good for many reasons, most of which might have nothing to do with Kruse's theories.

Maybe, but in reality, who cares? As long as your medical tests don't indicate any major dangers or serious concerns and you are feeling better from a particular protocol I'd say it doesn't matter if mechanisms of action are exact or not- it worked.

 

[shah78]

Establishing that Kruse's protocol is the cause of a specific chain of events requires more than just feeling good. The protocol might make you feel good for many reasons, most of which might have nothing to do with Kruse's theories.

Feeling good is everything.... I don't have any idea where your coming from. I'd also rather be young,rich, handsome, alhletic, strong,and optimistic and popular. I'll settle for feeling good and healthy,......for now.

 

[msf]

I don't know anything about this subject really, except that Hydroxy b-12 seems to be a safe option for me, but I would just like to say that I can understand why someone would try a protocol like this, but this would be the third option for me: first I would try to find a good doctor (I appreciate how difficult this is); second I would try following the protocol of a doctor with good patient testimonies; and only third would I try the protocol of a non-medical professional. This isn't because I think Fredd (or any other non-medical professional) is necessarily wrong, and the doctor is necessarily right, but just because I think doctors are more aware (or should be, if they stayed awake in their classes) of the full range of possible issues with any particular protocol.

Oh, and I realise that Rich wasn't a doctor either, so I would include him in this, even though he seemed to know a lot about the biochemistry of the body.

I guess this is a hazy area, though, because B-12 is a vitamin and most people (myself included) feel that it's safer to experiment by taking different vitamins than it is to do so by taking different drugs, even though this might not always be the case.

 

[Sea]

Are there any practitioners that you can recommend who are extremely good with SNP analysis?

I don't know about any practitioners.

Promethease is a good start. It lists good and bad snps you have in order of rarity and is based on scientific research.

Valentijn's program which shows your rare snps is also helpful, you then have to research the ones that show up.

 

[pemone]

Maybe, but in reality, who cares? As long as your medical tests don't indicate any major dangers or serious concerns and you are feeling better from a particular protocol I'd say it doesn't matter if mechanisms of action are exact or not- it worked.

If you have cancer and I give you an opiate, you claim to feel better. Did we cure the disease? Did we improve your disease condition? By your logic: who cares, as long as you feel better?

Aside from the fact that the logic in that argument is broken, some of us want a cure, not a patchwork of drugs that alleviate symptoms. Kruse's protocol may make you feel better, and that may or may not be associated with a true health improvement. Where is the proof other than the psychogenic response that "I feel better"? Proof means you measured something tangible before you initiated the protocol, and you tested the same thing at different points of time after initiating the protocol.

 

[pemone]

Feeling good is everything.... I don't have any idea where your coming from. I'd also rather be young,rich, handsome, alhletic, strong,and optimistic and popular. I'll settle for feeling good and healthy,......for now.

I'm coming from the place that there are 1000 web sites and that claim to make you feel better, and probably 700 of those actually do. I want to spend my very precious and very limited time chasing cures that can be proven to have a real result, not pursuing hippy pseudo-science that has no basis other than 100% subjective claims.

 

[Aerose91]

If you have cancer and I give you an opiate, you claim to feel better. Did we cure the disease? Did we improve your disease condition? By your logic: who cares, as long as you feel better?

Aside from the fact that the logic in that argument is broken, some of us want a cure, not a patchwork of drugs that alleviate symptoms. Kruse's protocol may make you feel better, and that may or may not be associated with a true health improvement. Where is the proof other than the psychogenic response that "I feel better"? Proof means you measured something tangible before you initiated the protocol, and you tested the same thing at different points of time after initiating the protocol.

Apparently u missed the part where I said your lab tests don't show any problems which would indicate improvements. By your logic none of us are sick because we have all been checked by conventional physicians and they have told us nothing is wrong because they can't find them.

How dare you accuse me and others here of looking for a band aid and not a cure. You have no clue how many things I have done and the degree in which this has destroyed mine and others' lives. We search and search for cures and solutions, never band aids.

I think our correspondence from here on out is over.

 

[pemone]

Apparently u missed the part where I said your lab tests don't show any problems which would indicate improvements. By your logic none of us are sick because we have all been checked by conventional physicians and they have told us nothing is wrong because they can't find them.

I have dozens of tests showing abnormalities. And I'm using those same tests to measure improvements. How would you know what my tests show?

How dare you accuse me and others here of looking for a band aid and not a cure. You have no clue how many things I have done and the degree in which this has destroyed mine and others' lives. We search and search for cures and solutions, never band aids.

Wanting a cure doesn't mean that using a subjective perception of health suddenly becomes a valid way to prove anything.

When dealing with almost any nutritional condition, you want to measure an objective nutrient or metabolite while you have the disease. You then test the therapy by measuring those same things after you take the drug.

Subjective reports that you feel better are not very useful. You probably aren't hurting yourself, but you are probably aren't curing anything either.

 

[pemone]

I think our correspondence from here on out is over.

I will not disregard science for you or anyone else. If the price of having a conversation with you is that I have to accept a claim that a therapy works because it makes you "feel good" then I am okay with not having conversations with you.

 

[Aerose91]

I will not disregard science for you or anyone else. If the price of having a conversation with you is that I have to accept a claim that a therapy works because it makes you "feel good" then I am okay with not having conversations with you.

You act as though I haven't spent tens of thousands of dollars on baseline tests and follow ups which show many, many abnormalities. If I had the money to continue them I would- I just simply don't.
I'm wondering why any of us have gone to our doctors at this point when we could have just seen you?

 

[pemone]

You act as though I haven't spent tens of thousands of dollars on baseline tests and follow ups which show many, many abnormalities. If I had the money to continue them I would- I just simply don't.
I'm wondering why any of us have gone to our doctors at this point when we could have just seen you?

I understand how frustrating this disease is. I spent six months thinking I was dying, not having a clue what was wrong with me, and having the medical establishment ignore my symptoms and doing absolutely nothing to help me. I'm sorry for your suffering, and I'm sorry for any human being who has to endure what we are all having to endure.

Let me give one example of why I don't think subjective feeling is the best way to improve your health. It's common as we age for nitric oxide levels to lower. Nitric oxide helps to vasodilate arteries and helps to maintain the health of the lining of the entire vascular system. Many researchers think it is the loss of nitric oxide that starts a chain of events that damages the arteries, which is then followed by oxidized LDL forming calcifications. The science behind all of this is really interesting and looks like it is pointing to something really important.

Long story short: I wanted to improve my nitric oxide levels. I found that there are test strips that will measure it, and I bought those. Common convention is that you can take L-Arginine and that will convert to nitric oxide. I tried taking MASSIVE doses of Arginine four times a day and my nitric oxide stayed at zero. I then did more research and found L-Citrulline will convert into L-Arginine in a more beneficial way for nitric oxide oxide generation. I took massive doses of Citrulline and my nitric oxide was still ZERO. I then found supplements that supposedly affected nitric oxide, like Neo40. I took those as instructed and my nitric oxide was barely above zero. I finally researched and found what foods are high in nitrates. I can - for example - take three full cups of shredded celery and - like magic - my nitric oxide goes to the target range. I'm still testing it, and I will adjust quantity and frequency of the foods based on the testing.

My point is: where would I be on this journey if I had no way to TEST my hypothesis? EVERY IDEA I HAD ABOUT HOW TO MAKE NITRIC OXIDE GO HIGHER WAS WRONG. And the only way I found out each idea was wrong was to test. Taking massive doses of Arginine actually made me feel pretty good, so subjective feeling wasn't a reliable thing. The lesson is be skeptical about everything - especially your own ideas - until you can prove that something works.

What I maintain is that most of these therapies we self-administer are similarly ineffectual, and we can never really know unless we have a specific outcome that is measurable that we can test for. That's the whole point of the scientific method: you have a theory about how to change something, and then you test it. And what usually happens is your hypothesis is disproved by the facts. So you adjust your theory, try again, and test again. It's almost always back and forth like that, until you succeed. Discovering your mistakes and correcting for them is the sign of a good theory.

In case of mercury, there are pitfalls. Attempting to detox mercury without testing is just like trying to get your nitric oxide higher when you have no way to test nitric oxide. Good luck with that.

I do almost everything Jack Kruse says to do, except I haven't tried the CT yet. To me it is just good common sense to maintain healthy DHA Omega-3 and get that from seafood. Lower your EMF exposure. Pay attention to grounding and try to get free electrons. None of that is going to make you feel bad, although be sure to test your Omega-3 levels occasionally because you can get too much of it, and you do need some Omega-6. But if someone wants to go beyond just subjective claims and say that Kruse's protocol actually cures some specific disease, that requires measurement and science. I have no problems agreeing with the subjective claims. I won't sit by while someone makes scientific claims about cures of disease, when there is no data to support the claim.

It's okay for us to disagree about that.

 

[shah78]

@pone You waste more time arguing here on PR than I spend each day actually curing my disease! I'm sad about this.for you. As Charlie Babbit said to Raymond Babbit in "RAINMAN". "It's not a riddle, Ray, it's a joke!" I took it as a metaphor for life than(1994) and I take it as a metaphor for this disease we are all experiencing. Good wishes ,as I sit here in my cold tub, actaualy doing some healing.

 

[shah78]

You act as though I haven't spent tens of thousands of dollars on baseline tests and follow ups which show many, many abnormalities. If I had the money to continue them I would- I just simply don't.
I'm wondering why any of us have gone to our doctors at this point when we could have just seen you?

Actually, I would prefer to have gone to Pone, rather than all the loser allopaths I went to!

 

[shah78]

I understand how frustrating this disease is. I spent six months thinking I was dying, not having a clue what was wrong with me, and having the medical establishment ignore my symptoms and doing absolutely nothing to help me. I'm sorry for your suffering, and I'm sorry for any human being who has to endure what we are all having to endure.

Let me give one example of why I don't think subjective feeling is the best way to improve your health. It's common as we age for nitric oxide levels to lower. Nitric oxide helps to vasodilate arteries and helps to maintain the health of the lining of the entire vascular system. Many researchers think it is the loss of nitric oxide that starts a chain of events that damages the arteries, which is then followed by oxidized LDL forming calcifications. The science behind all of this is really interesting and looks like it is pointing to something really important.

Long story short: I wanted to improve my nitric oxide levels. I found that there are test strips that will measure it, and I bought those. Common convention is that you can take L-Arginine and that will convert to nitric oxide. I tried taking MASSIVE doses of Arginine four times a day and my nitric oxide stayed at zero. I then did more research and found L-Citrulline will convert into L-Arginine in a more beneficial way for nitric oxide oxide generation. I took massive doses of Citrulline and my nitric oxide was still ZERO. I then found supplements that supposedly affected nitric oxide, like Neo40. I took those as instructed and my nitric oxide was barely above zero. I finally researched and found what foods are high in nitrates. I can - for example - take three full cups of shredded celery and - like magic - my nitric oxide goes to the target range. I'm still testing it, and I will adjust quantity and frequency of the foods based on the testing.

My point is: where would I be on this journey if I had no way to TEST my hypothesis? EVERY IDEA I HAD ABOUT HOW TO MAKE NITRIC OXIDE GO HIGHER WAS WRONG. And the only way I found out each idea was wrong was to test. Taking massive doses of Arginine actually made me feel pretty good, so subjective feeling wasn't a reliable thing. The lesson is be skeptical about everything - especially your own ideas - until you can prove that something works.

What I maintain is that most of these therapies we self-administer are similarly ineffectual, and we can never really know unless we have a specific outcome that is measurable that we can test for. That's the whole point of the scientific method: you have a theory about how to change something, and then you test it. And what usually happens is your hypothesis is disproved by the facts. So you adjust your theory, try again, and test again. It's almost always back and forth like that, until you succeed. Discovering your mistakes and correcting for them is the sign of a good theory.

In case of mercury, there are pitfalls. Attempting to detox mercury without testing is just like trying to get your nitric oxide higher when you have no way to test nitric oxide. Good luck with that.

I do almost everything Jack Kruse says to do, except I haven't tried the CT yet. To me it is just good common sense to maintain healthy DHA Omega-3 and get that from seafood. Lower your EMF exposure. Pay attention to grounding and try to get free electrons. None of that is going to make you feel bad, although be sure to test your Omega-3 levels occasionally because you can get too much of it, and you do need some Omega-6. But if someone wants to go beyond just subjective claims and say that Kruse's protocol actually cures some specific disease, that requires measurement and science. I have no problems agreeing with the subjective claims. I won't sit by while someone makes scientific claims about cures of disease, when there is no data to support the claim.

It's okay for us to disagree about that.

I like your enthusiasm...... Here are my objectives tests. I've gained twenty to twenty five lbs of muscle, lost five to ten lbs of fat at the age of 55-59 years old, while doing less than one hour of weightlifting per months. I have the best erections of my life, at age 59. My skin is softer.smoother/less dry that ever in my life, at age 59. My hair and nails are the best they've ever been, at age 59. My digestion is better than ever. My mood is better than ever.My levels of pain are at an all time low. Last,but not least : I look at my contemporaries.While every friend from high school and college looks awful, like they're heading for an early death, I look more and more vital/viral/youthful. In other words, I feel good.

 

[pemone]

Actually, I would prefer to have gone to Pone, rather than all the loser allopaths I went to!

Yeah, but that is a little like telling me that I am a bit more moral than Satan. Pretty faint praise.

 

[pemone]

I like your enthusiasm...... Here are my objectives tests. I've gained twenty to twenty five lbs of muscle, lost five to ten lbs of fat at the age of 55-59 years old, while doing less than one hour of weightlifting per months. I have the best erections of my life, at age 59. My skin is softer.smoother/less dry that ever in my life, at age 59. My hair and nails are the best they've ever been, at age 59. My digestion is better than ever. My mood is better than ever.My levels of pain are at an all time low. Last,but not least : I look at my contemporaries.While every friend from high school and college looks awful, like they're heading for an early death, I look more and more vital/viral/youthful. In other words, I feel good.

That is encouraging, and it's wonderful that there can be this kind of important improvement in health.

Out of curiosity, how much of this change do you attribute to your mercury detox using Cutler, and how much do you attribute to things you have done under Kruse's protocols?

 

[shah78]

90% Kruse 10% Cutler I just can't take enough ALA to "hammer" Cutler. I have no limitation on "hammering" Kruse. Petal to the metal, baby!

 

[pemone]

90% Kruse 10% Cutler I just can't take enough ALA to "hammer" Cutler. I have no limitation on "hammering" Kruse. Petal to the metal, baby!

So break it down further. In your subjective experience, how much of that 90% is attributable to specific parts of the Kruse protocol, such as:

* DHA from seafood
* grounding
* avoiding EMF
* cold therapy
* magnetism

I mean, if you had to divide all of those things (and any additional thing I am missing from my list) in a way that totals to 100%, how does it divide?

When you say you have no limitation on hammering Kruse, what does that mean? You mean you can spend more time doing it during a given week?