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Is there a quick way to heal leaky gut / dysbiosis ?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by xchocoholic, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    This is probably a dumb question but ...

    Why don't we just take strong antibiotics and a candida killer for however long it takes to kill off any bad bacteria and candida we have and then use a massive dose of probiotics to fix dysbiosis ? A parasite killer could be added to if needed ...

    Granted, there will be die off but we do that everytime we take antibiotics anyways because it kills the good bacteria as well as the bad. We'd need to take something to help our bodies detox the dead bacteria and candida. I'm not sure if charcoal or molybdenum would be enough ...

    Is it because our detox systems are too weak for this ? I know my liver was struggling to keep up with glycogenesis (producing glucose from fats) years ago but it's doing better now. My kidneys were dealing with stones and UTIs regularly too ...

    The reason, I ask is that I've been taking probiotics for years and I still seem to need them everyday. So maybe if I'd done this years ago, the bad guys would've been killed off by now and the good guys would've taken over.

    anyone ? Is this what DAN (Defeat Autism Now) practioners are doing with autistic kids ?

    thanks ... x
    merylg likes this.
  2. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I guess because it has already been tried by patients for decades. Probably what I would needed to have done first of all is get a test to prove I had a leaky gut/ dysbiosis to start off rather than trying different things to see if they could help. It was in the 80's though and more is available for testing now.

    My stomach problems didn't start until I'd taken several courses of antibiotics for recurruing throat infections at the start of my acute onset ME. No stomach problems at onset or in the first phase. Candida regimes/drugs did little for me gutwise (except for clearing up the obvious candida mouth etc problems). They did however much me much more ill and I'm unconvinced that it was largely die-off.

    Probiotics stopped working for me about 10 years ago and I don't understand why. Other treatements supposedly for a leaky gut left me worse off and aggrevated the problem (phyillim husks etc).

    Only developed an obvious sulphur stomach problem about 5 years ago. Diagnosed by a NHS gastro and the antibiotics did little to help.

    There comes a time when patients just stop flogging a dead horse and move into other things or wait to see what new things develop to treat a problem that they have. It may be that my stomach problems are more XMRV or entrovirus related and this could need a more specific treatment.

    Tried all the obvious things.
    merylg likes this.
  3. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi ukxmrv,

    Sorry to hear probiotics stopped working for you. I've only noticed a positive reaction to liquid probiotics and 2 dairy free probiotics. The problem with probiotic supplements is that you never know whether the bacteria are alive or not. If you grow your own, you can tell by the natural carbonation that the bacteria are alive.

    Are you seeing an integrative doc and getting the proper testing ? CDSA, nutritional deficiencies, hormones, etc ... this has helped me dramatically.

    Good point about the XMRV. I know I have a variety of elevated viral titers but I'm not sure how they affect me. XMRV may prove to be an underlying factor here ... but ... heck if I know ... I'm still deep into research mode on all of this ... But integrative doctors believe that a healthy immune system can fight most viruses. I'm not sure if that applies to a retro virus though ... I did see some saying that if we didn't have weakened immune systems we wouldn't show symptoms of XMRV.

    I keep getting back to gut health aka strengtheing our immune systems. Studies have shown that Kombucha will kill certain molds, bad bacteria, etc so maybe it's a matter of getting the wrong bacteria killed off and the right bacteria in it's place ...

    FWIW ... I'm not sure if I'll ever stop flogging this dead horse of mine ... lol ... healing as much as I have has motivated me into thinking that JUST MAYBE I can finish healing ... tc ... x
  4. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Rotating probiotics...

    Hi X,

    A couple of questions:

    What kinds/brands/amounts of probiotics are you taking?

    And do you rotate them on a regular basis? (A friend from our local group who is basically recovered, still rotates probiotics on a daily basis, even though she's been well (well enough to go back to school full time) for the last 2+ years. She was sick for over 16 years...)

    Also -- have you tried or do you eat foods like raw sauerkraut or kefir, or FOS-type foods that help to replenish beneficial bacteria?

    thanks,

    Dan

    p.s. I personally don't think abx's are the way to go, except in an emergency situation (although some have had good results using them). A lot of the problems we have today might be traced to the overuse of abx's, and some even claim that abx's help drive the infection deeper into the body.
  5. curry

    curry Senior Member

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    This might be due to the following:

    There are different type of probiotics:

    - Lactic acid bacteria probiotics, which build the protective flora in the gut and heal the leaky gut wall - VSL-3 is the best product.
    - Probiotics which don't colonise the gut, but train the defense of the gut - Mutaflor (Escherichia Coli) or Symbioflor (Enterococci).

    So if you'd like to train your gut associated immune system, build the gut flora and heal the leaky intestinal wall, take both type, this may help.

    And btw, yes it will take ages until the lactic acid bacteria will colonise in your gut. The most cost-saving way is if you cultivate your own probiotics at home.


    Regarding killing the candida and detox:

    - Take high doses of vitamin C (3g day) this will disinfect your gut
    - In addition take citricidal grapefruit seed extract tablets
    - To detox, start with one chlorella per day and go up to 10 tablets a day

    I had candida (diagnosed by antibody blood test), and got rid of it with the steps explained above.

    Best wishes,
  6. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi Dan,

    Because I need to avoid gluten, dairy and soy, I take Country Life Dairy Free power dophilus, Megaflora and Fem Dophilous occasionally because it contains dairy. I also started making my own Kombucha tea a few months ago. And I found a coconut probiotic drink by So Delicous that I'm letting ferment further in order to reduce the sugar content. And ... I'm making a probiotic drink with cranberry juice, water, sugar + CL probiotics + megaflora ... and I just started making cultured veggies and coconut kefir with the Body Ecology kefir starter again ... lol ... I think I'm officially "cultured" now ...

    I'm using all of these most days now. I'm not sure what FOS is but I'll look ... thanks ... I take Konsyl and flax daily just in case that's what FOS is ...

    I've learned from growing bacteria, the key is to get more good guys than bad guys or else the bad guys will take over. So, I started thinking that since I take so many probiotics and yet I still don't have the upper hand on this maybe I need to spend time killing off the bad guys ...

    I'm supposed to do a CDSA asap so that'll tell me what's up too. I just got into some landscape projects and haven't done it yet. tc ... x
  7. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Thanks Curry,

    You've given me some new info so I'll have to google all of this ... I heard that VSL#3 is good too but it has dairy so I'm avoiding. Megaflora is a good option, but I'm not sure if I'm getting live bacteria in it or not.

    I installed a French drain in my front yard this afternoon so I need to go get a shower ... tc ... x
  8. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    I take sacharomyces boulardii, the healthy yeast which should replace candida without die off symptoms and am too on probiotics and high dose C as curry wrote.
  9. Tony

    Tony Still working on it all..

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  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi xchocoholic

    I have heard that de Meirleir does this with some patients: an ultra-strong antibiotic that is not absorbed from the gut, and strong enough to kill everything, followed by two broad spectrum probiotics for an extended period. I know of one patient who has done this who has gone from completely bed bound to walking around, but this did cause severe gastrointestinal upset until the probiotics kicked in.

    Bye
    Alex
  11. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Yes there is a quick way: water-only fasting, should take 2-3 weeks.

    Cig
  12. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Ok, that's crazy ... no one should go on a water diet for 2 - 3 weeks !!!

    I'm came back to tell you all that I'm having an allergic to one of the drinks I'm making so you'll want to watch out for that. Of course, not everyone will have an allergic reaction ... tc ... x
  13. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi X,

    I'm completely serious, fasting is the single most powerful means of curing gut-related illness, the human body is perfectly designed to be able to go without food for around 40days - otherwise we'd be extinct. I have attached a research article of which there are many in the literature.

    If you prefer fun videos to articles take a look at this set of you-tube interviews from the True North health Clinic in California:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aueix05IV5E

    Leaky-gut is one of their specialities.

    Best wishes,

    Cig

    Attached Files:

  14. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Just to respond to a few things here:

    The initial suggestion of taking strong antibiotics then probiotics would work for a while to resolve dysbiosis, but you would have to keep repeating it, as the problem initially arises - and recurs - because the immune system is not strong enough to maintain the right floral balance by killling off the bad bacteria.

    Leaky gut is not the same as dysbiosis. It results from damaged tight junctions and results from inadequate sulphation. There are various theories about how this happens and most of the ideas on how to resolve it lead to a catch 22 type problem: you have leaky gut because you are not metabolising/using sulphur properly, but you cannot resolve it because you cannot use all the sulphur-compund supplements that should theoretically resolve the problem.

    Eating nothing at all does actually give great relief to the pains and symptoms of leaky gut, as it does to many other intestinal problems. The trouble is, when you start eating again, the whole situation goes back to how it was before. I met a patient recently who has spent huge amounts of her life fasting and, apart from being really thin, she had achieved nothing from it.

    I have spend many days on end hugging a hot water bottle against my painful, distended belly and trying to resolve this issue. If I ever find out a solution, I'll share it!
  15. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I wonder how many ME patients would survive a fast? After a day I'm already passing out / fainting and throwing up. Doesn't get any better after that.

    Quiet seriously think that this would make most ME patients worse and even kill some of us.
    lastgasp likes this.
  16. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Me too, UKXMRV. Just skipping breakfast for a blood test makes me feel really awful for the whole day, even after I have eaten something.
  17. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Dear all,

    As I mentioned in another thread, fasting was actually the treatment of choice for type-II diabetics before insulin was discovered. So long as you are not type-I diabetic, the blood-sugar problems will not kill you - in fact they are an indication that long fasts should be done. In my own experience of short fasts, the blood-sugar symptoms disappear after the first day, of course it's unpleasant during this but you just ride it through. By day 2 I just feel lethargic. By day 3 I feel amazing. It is important to stay in bed if you are feeling ill during the initial period and always do this at a clinic with lots of experience such as True North Health in the US.



    Hi Athene -

    Did your friend fast for over 5 days or was it just a series of short fasts? It is important to get into ketosis (which takes 3days) and the unique benefits of fasting do not often occur unless the fast is longer than about 10days.

    Sounds like you're in a really bad way with stomach pains. If you live in the US I really would urge you to call Dr Alan Goldhamer at True North health and speak to him - he would be able to reassure you about how they would monitor your condition and tell you something about other people's experiences. There they also perform blood tests to make sure you are not deficient before going into the fast. But it is very safe.

    Best wishes

    Cig
  18. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Howdy ...

    I can't go very long without eating either. I can stand up in the mornings without feeling like I'm going to fall over now that my fasting glucose level is better but I STILL feel better if I eat breakfast soon after getting up. It's not really a hungry feeling. I just can't think. Being on the computer before breakfast is way too taxing on my brain and makes me feel horrible. My family will tell me to eat because evidently I get goofy when my glucose is too low ... lol ... after 20 years of CFS, how am I supposed to know what goofy is ?

    I went on the modified Atkins diet to see if it would help my seizures a few years ago but my Blood glucose level wouldn't stay up high enough for me to function. I've been on the Paleo / low carb diet for 2 - 3 years now so I've been in ketosis most of the time and still I need fruit / sugar to think ... btw. the ranges given for hypoglycemia are just a guideline, I felt and looked like death at 67 back then.

    I was wondering if one of the problems we have with fatigue is that our bodies can't function on ketones. When I started feeling healthy at rest back in 2007, I didn't feel crappy until I'd been active aka walking, folding clothes, etc, for 15 minutes. I know I read somewhere that this is how long it takes a person to burn through their available glucose stores ... After that the liver takes over ... if it can ...

    I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I haven't researched the posts here yet but I still appreciate the info. I don't know why but lately I've been in HAPPY mode. Something changed and all I want to do is play ... lol ...

    tc ... X
  19. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Fasting has its pros and cons, and so much depends on the person's constitution at the time a fast is considered. Like any treatment, timing and terrain, external environment and other indicators of appropriateness must be considered. There are few if any treatments that work for all people at all times under any circumstances. Doing, say, a juice fast in the middle of winter in Ohio, when you are already weak and chilly, would not likely give a good result, and would conceivably leave a person worse for the wear.

    I personally do not do well at all with fasts, though many do. It is important to note that fasting is contraindicated when people are already very weak, or when they do not have adequate kidney and liver function. (Those *must* be tested before attempting any fast, as one's ability to handle the rapid detox is key.) I believe the same holds true for poor methylators, but that is an opinion based on my personal experience.

    The other thing to consider here is the issue of biofilms. I believe a multi-pronged approach is necessary for the dissolution of biofilms, which are a networked matrix of bacteria, fungi, viruses, heavy metals etc that are able to communicate, adapt , and protect themselves from the usual treatments. What is usually proposed is treatment with oral EDTA to dissolve the matrix, antibacterials/antivirals, and probiotics in sequence. I'm sure this has been discussed on other threads, but I suggest it here as I imagine biofilms are involved in leaky gut/dysbiosis, as they form a coating on the gut wall and allow the critters to go hog wild underneath.
  20. laura

    laura Senior Member

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    hi,
    Just wanted to chime in with my experience. I was having symptoms of Irritable Bowl Syndrome.
    I tried several different brands and strains of probiotics. The only brand that I found really worked, that is, healed my stomach well enough that I didn't have to take probiotics for months, was Dr. Ohhira's Professional Formula. Some of the others I liked, but I had to continue taking them to see results. The first time I took Dr. Ohhira's at the same time I was taking the probiotic drink Good Belly. Many months later I seemed to need a "tune up," and took a course of just Dr. Ohhira's. My stomach is ok at the moment.

    re: fasting, I very occasionally have to fast for a 24 hour period as part of my religious practice, and find it crashes me. I always make sure I have the next day free to recover. And I feel it still a day or so after that. I've never noticed a change in my stomach symptoms.

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