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Is "overmethylation" actually paradoxical folate deficiency?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by LynnJ, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. LynnJ

    LynnJ Senior Member

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    I continue to be confused on this. Lately I'm seeing a number of people state that there is really no such thing as "overmethylation," at least for the average person taking B12/folate/etc. They go on to state that in fact, the issue is probably that you don't have enough folate in your system.

    Thoughts? Anyone with some experience here? I'm going to experiment a little today to see. I upped my B12 dosage to 2000mcg per day last week from my normal 1000mcg, and I was taking 1600mcg of folinic acid, my preferred form. There might have been a few days when I took 2400mcg. Hard to remember.

    Unfortunately, my heart rate has generally been in the 90s - low 100s since around Friday, and I feel short of breath. I keep having to yawn. I've tried taking niacin these last few days - 500mcg or more, as well as potassium, and while I thought I was initially getting some relief, my heart rate keeps shooting on back up.

    I usually get a lot of cramping in my legs when my potassium is the culprit, and my legs have been mostly fine...

    Wondering if I should start taking 800-1600mcg of folinic, perhaps without any or just a crumb of B12, to see if my issue is actually a lack of folate.
     
  2. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    I cant really help a lot since I take completely different daily doses :

    Hydroxyl 2880mcg (adjusted for absorption at 80%)
    Methyl 1120mcg (adjusted for absorption at 80%)
    Methyl folate 1200mcg

    I now take subdermal oils which have an 80% absorption whereas sublingual can be as low as 5% typically 10% from what I've read on PR.

    what I can say is that when I adjusted my B12 or folate it takes a good 8 weeks for symptoms to settle down and sometimes the symptoms are quite difficult to fathom during the period. (included heart palpitations and IBS type symptoms)

    When I'm stable the symptoms that are most noticeable for low folate are mouth ulcers and waves of nausea

    Low B12 is mainly cognitive (confusion\foggy)

    We are all different though and I have the added complication of taking a folate inhibiting drug.

    During the adjustment period it is difficult to make head nor tail of whats going on. I would say though that the changes you've made (i.e. doubling) are quite dramatic. Perhaps changing by 20% each time might be easier to handle and keeping all the doses for both fixed from day to day. I also noticed that the 4 hr half life for folate is definitely worth adhering to and so I split the dose in 3 for during the day. I think the trick is finding your B12\Folate balance. perhaps go back to the dose where you felt better? your reaction to B12 makes me think though that your B12 may be low vs the folate?

    Another thing you don't mention is if you are also taking other supplements (B complex, Acetyl carnitine, phosphatidyl serine, magnesium, multi minerals etc?).

    Good luck
     
  3. vortex

    vortex Senior Member

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    Isnt the cure for paradoxical to increase the dose rapidly ? I have tried that and it make things worse when I am overmethylating. Niacin and potassium fix it, so to plug in your theory how could a paradox deficiency be helped by potassium and niacin? If you link those together then your theory could move forward.
     
  4. vortex

    vortex Senior Member

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    On another note, I have been taking methylfolate 1 mg and b-12 methyl injectable for a year. I move up to 2mg and 3mg pretty easily for a while with no overmethylation, but lately I have added growth hormone booster and now I overmethylate frequently on the 1mg.
     
  5. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    I think the potassium is linked to the production of new cells, so the theory goes that if you start speeding up a previously sluggish and inefficient methylation by fixing the b12/ folate side of things, your body signals that a lot of things that are also sluggish as a result can now speed up. One of these things is the production of cells, particularly blood cells. This then tanks your potassium levels which is needed to make them.

    The niacin is about supporting a deficiency that occurs as a result of pushing folate too hard. Niacin is used for loads of things ( other biochemical reactions) so it's similar to the potassium...its a. A balance thing. The same occurs with b1 and b2, which is why I was asking about the b complex. I take the additional b vitamins 3 times a day. I was taking them individually at one point and overdoing it with the b3 (got histamine reaction) until I dropped this down a bit.

    Increasing the dose rapidly or taking too much folate seems counter intuitive to me. If you have been under for so long that you have neurological symptoms it makes sense that your body has adapted to this new norm. Starting low and go slow to allow the 200 or so methylation dependent processes to catch up seems logical. It also makes sense to support these with the other cofactors and the key ones seem to be potassium, essential minerals (such as copper, magnesium, molybdenum, iron, manganese, chromium etc) and other b vitamins. It takes around a year for b12 liver stocks to build back up apparently so I'm expecting a rocky road for at least that long. Brain repair takes a lot longer.

    Here's a link that explains the niacin theory better than me
    https://seekinghealth.org/resource/using-niacin-to-offset-methylfolate-side-effects/
     
    vortex likes this.
  6. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    It's all a balancing act.

    I find that a lot of things affect the b12/ folate demand (activity...even though it's not much, alcohol, pollen count, infection). The trick I suppose is to find a consistent working level that irons out the peaks and troughs. Other people have reported that they climbed up to a level and after being at that level for ages they suddenly need to drop it down a bit. So I think things change over time too as your body adapts to the new levels.

    My wife notices this with her thyroid meds which have gone up and down over the years ( she doesn't have CFS/ME)

    Judging by my mouth ulcers I may need to tweak up my folate a tad after being fine for 6 months on my current dose.

    I seem to be making progress with it though in that brain fog/ gut issues are far less frequent
     
  7. vortex

    vortex Senior Member

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    So your theory is that niacin helps overmethylation symptoms not because it is indrectly "soaking up excess methyl groups" as the current theory is but rather the symptoms are directly from methylation speeding reactions up and causing a niacin deficiency ? Meaning that internal grinding/trembling feeling is 100% caused by niacin deficiency?

    That would be interesting and important to figure out because right now people only use the niacin if they get symptoms and when they do they sort of feel like it is impeding things by shutting the methylation back down.
    So it has been used as a "break glass on the fire extinguisher access door in case of emergency" thing.

    But if this is true, I would just start taking a slow release niacin every day, which I am considering but dont want to do if it means slowing down or shutting down the methylation that I am boosing by taking methylation protocol supplements.
     
  8. vortex

    vortex Senior Member

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    Also, I realized that taking whey protein which contains undenatured whey and cystein glutathione precursors quickly gives me overmethylation symptoms and I can only tolerate a 1/4 of a scoop and I am slowly working my way up but have had to use niacin many times to bail me out of a situation where I overdid it.
     
  9. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    I think over methylation vs under methylation oversimplifies what is a very complex and intricate set of pathways. I tried to work it out once from the supposed symptoms that you see a lot online, but a lot of the symptoms just don't marry up and I seem to be over methylating at the same time as under methylating? It's possible there is more than one thing going on simultaneously apart from niacin?

    I think the human body is extremely adaptable (and complicated) and in the main will take what it needs for a lot of the components so a b complex 'covers your bases' for potential deficiencies as does the multi vitamin and mineral.

    I take the b vitamins in split doses during the day but take the multi vitamin and mineral once around 2 pm although I'm not sure it matters what time. I don't have enough compartments in my pill dispenser or the brain power to figure out which component is causing me a problem (B1, b2, B3, B5 etc etc) so dosing them all together and taking them as split doses seems to be the best bet for an easy life and also to avoid any deficiency surprises.
     
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  10. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    Those could be symptoms of heart failure. They may be symptoms of B1 deficiency. There have been a few threads recently discussing the possibility that methylation protocols deplete B1.
     
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  11. vortex

    vortex Senior Member

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    Well I am somewhat stalled on methylation. I am stuck at 1mg. methylfolate and can easily overmethylate with adding whey protein and hgh boosters.
    So the question is, do I take niacin so it will alleviate overmethylation/symptoms, but will it come at the expense of making progress?
    Or do I have to withhold the niacin so I can make gains?
     

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