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Is methylation the problem with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Kontra, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. Kontra

    Kontra

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    Hi All,

    I'm after some advice for getting started.

    I have numerous symptoms, notably multiple chemical sensitivity, peripheral neuropathy, slow digestion, constipation, acid reflux, insomnia, braing fog, chronic shortness of breath, left and right ache under the rib cage, lack of appetite and many others.

    Whenever I try liver support herbs or B vitamins I get massively overstimulated, can't sleep at all and my bowels clog up completely. I get this feeling of my skin crawling and electricity in the legs. It's an intolerable state to be in and supplements are often quickly abandoned.

    The most recent attempt was taking a formula called 'lipotropic detox' by pure encapsulations. I took half a capsule, which is 1/4 of the dosage. This equates to....

    - 1.25mg of B6
    - 25mg of Folate
    - 12.5mg of B12 (Methlcobalamin)

    i.e. hardly anything.

    There are lots of other things in the formula, but given my similar reactions to supplements in the past, I suspect it's the B vitamins that are the problem.

    Is methylation the right process to be working on when you suffer from multiple chemical sensitivity?

    Of all the material I've read, I'm convinced the issue is to do with a fast phase 1 detox and slow phase 2. Anyone have any ideas how one might go about trying to get this balanced out?

    Many thanks,
  2. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Kontra,
    Those doses aren't "hardly anything" in my book. Did you perhaps mean mcg, not mg?
  3. Kontra

    Kontra

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    Ah, my bad!

    Yes it should be....
    - 1.25mg of B6
    - 25mcg folate
    - 12.5mcg of B12 (Methlcobalamin)
    Critterina likes this.
  4. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    :D OK, then I agree with you, they are miniscule amounts.

    I'm no expert on any of this, and I know nothing about how to fix phase 1 vs phase 2 detox. Some people have had success with reducing their chemical sensitivities through methylation first, but I don't think that's going to work for you.

    So, my next thought was whether you've reacted to other methyl cycle supplements or whether there is something else in what you're taking that you're reacting to. So I looked the stuff up. The first likely culprit I see is TMG trimethylglycine. Have you ever taken that before? Did you react?

    I see they use pyridoxine HCl B6 in that supplement. It's totally useless for me. Have you ever taken P5P instead of B6? Do you react to it?

    Well, that aside, I'm just going to take it at face value that you don't do well with B Vitamins in supplements. When you eat foods with equivalent amounts of B vitamins, do you react?

    Have you had your 23andMe or other genetic analysis done? Or other labs that show where something might be going wrong? Have you had your thyroid and adrenals checked?

    Have you tried any dietary changes and did they help?

    I"ll be interested to see what you find out about the fast/slow detox - it seems like I may have problems in that area, too. Sorry I'm not much help here. Hopefully someone with more experience will come along to help you.
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The short answer is yes. Technically, it's a lack of glutathione which is the body's main detoxifier. Glutathione can be depleted from a combination of genetics and environmental stressors which slow down methylation. The best way to rebuild glutathione is to restart methylation.

    I get relief from MCS just by doing methylfolate, but it's not a good idea to do that without also taking B12 as it will deplete your B12 stores over time, especially if you have SNPs which affect B12.

    My suggestion would be to first work on the gut with a 4R gut rebuilding program, before doing methylation supplements.

    I think you have leaky gut, based on your bowels being slow (magnesium/potassium leaking out causing this), and then when you start B vitamins it gets worse. Also the creepy crawling feeling in your legs. The sleep problem is probably due to your legs twitching while you sleep and it wakes you up throughout the night.

    This is because increasing methylation will increase the need for magnesium/potassium so you're getting into deficiency symptoms. You won't be able to supplement with enough mag/potass to overcome this, and it could become a dangerous situation. So learn from my mistake and treat for leaky gut first!

    You should also get a 23andme SNP test so we can tell you what supplements are going to work for you genetically speaking.

    The overstimulation problem could be a CBS problem. In that case, you would treat for CBS before taking methyl supplements such as folate and B12.

    Once you have all that under your belt, you should be able to tolerate B vitamins.

    Check out the links in my signature, starting with the Methylation Made Easy videos.
    Fogbuster and Tara like this.
  6. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Perhaps a duplication of the post above.
    MCS can be related to anything that disrupts detoxification. It could be genetically driven - you do not have optimal genes to create the enzymes necessary. It could be related to the interference of other compounds which are changing function. Heavy metal toxicity or certain medications can do this. I have also suspected that the gut by absorbing franken-molecules can disrupt things as well.
    Some of these problems, as you have no doubt read by now, can be related to imbalances between the 2 phases of detoxification. Things like B3 and niacinamide (and others I suspect, I am not an expert) can speed up and slow down phase one and two and make sensitivities worse. My brother had more of this than me - we are both mercury toxic.
    Sorry, I don't have more information. All I can tell you is that he is getting better.
  7. Tara

    Tara

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    "I get relief from MCS just by doing methylfolate, but it's not a good idea to do that without also taking B12 as it will deplete your B12 stores over time, especially if you have SNPs which affect B12."

    I'm up to 10,000 mcg Methyl-B12 and 1000 mcg Methyl-Folate, having a bit of a rougher go with my folate increases. I also have severe MCS. I'm thinking that folate might be the missing link for both my MCS and my thiol sensitivities.

    I'm having a bad MCS reaction ATM, and tried another 200 mcg of methyl-folate to see if it'd lessen the severity a little. Instead, it's made the reaction much more intense. Would this be indicative of anything?

    I'm going to be adding in the Anabol Dibencoplex soon. Not sure if its absence is causing greater issues for me tolerating the folate? Thanks for any further insight. Your post was quite helpful.
  8. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Senior Member

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    Sorry to hijack @Kontra the thread but really need some help on a similar issue. How are you doing and have you had much success thus far? Just so you know your not alone with the skin crawling feeling! :hug:

    Hi @caledonia,

    I have been trying to treat my leaky gut, SIBO and Yeast overgrowth for over 2 years with absolutely no progress whatsoever. I have food sensitivities to all vegetables now, no joke. Clearly something is wrong on a deeper level. One thing I should note Is through testing, it was shown I had mild/moderate Organophosphate (pesticides) and Mercury poisoning. I also should note, from recent findings that I have MCS. I am chemically sensitive to the toxins in hair dye, toxic hand soaps, cigarette smoke and I presume mold, considering I have one or both nostrils blocked when I'm in bed and around the house. My reactions are mild, being fairly intense brain fog and nose inflammation when very close to toxic chemicals, asthmatic symptoms when I smoke a cigarette and a stuffy nose with mold.

    I originally thought toxins couldn't be a problem because my naturopath said it wasn't enough to be too worried about, at this time he had only diagnosed me with Leaky gut, SIBO and Yeast overgrowth. Following on from this he recommended me to take antifungals, vitamins and go on a low carb stone age diet, after 6 months I gained no improvement whatsoever and spent a shed load of money on seeing him, tests and supplements. We parted company in a rather abrupt way, so no further feedback was received. Since then because I've made no improvements I've been diagnosed with CFS by my doctor.

    From then I have attempted the GAPS diet for over a year and a half and have not improved my gut/food sensitivities in anyway. So just following a diet is not going to get me better. Something is preventing me from healing... The way Im thinking in simplistic theory is that maybe my toxic mercury/organophosphate load is too much so effectively its stopping me healing or maybe its messed up my methylation cycle or detoxification system, I just have no idea. What do you think it could be?

    I feel very toxic and my good ol powerful gut instinct is telling me so. I know I need to detox and clean out the pipe works somehow but I don't know how to safely and productively, if you can give your 2cents It'd be highly appreciated. :)

    Best wishes
    Jamie


    FYI: When I get in a bath (hardly hot at all) I have to get out after 10 minutes because I feel uncomfortable and my heart beat is racing so hard and then when I get out I have to sit down because I feel so faint.
  9. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Fogbuster, I can relate. I spent tons of money going to a chiropractor and taking his recommended supplements. i actually got worse. During the first visit I said that I thought I had mercury poisoning, but he totally ignored me. My fault for not just leaving. I guess I didn't trust my own intuition.

    I read in an old book that warmth will make your blood more alkaline, and the stored acids will move from the tissue into the bloodstream. This makes your blood much thicker and it's hard on your cardiovascular system. Unfortunately the stuff I used to put in my bath that actually helped the toxins get out of your body isn't available right now because the FDA gave the company a hard time. Maybe if you put some clay in the bath and keep the water as unwarm as possible. Just an idea.

    I tried so many diets and supplements to get over candida, but they didn't do anything for the problem. One thing about candida that it took me a long time to find is that it lives on the heavy metals, which actually protects you from the metals. Metals are more toxic than candida. You have to get rid of metals first.

    Clay can safely and economically help to remove chemicals, toxins, and acids out of the body. Something for helping the immune system will help deal with the candida. You have to get your body to where it takes care of it, that's the only hope.
  10. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Senior Member

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    RichVank Quotes

    ""I expect that you would get different advice from Andy, but for what it's worth, I would suggest doing the methylation protocol first. If it works, it will bring up the sulfur metabolism, which the body's detox system depends on to a large extent, and which is dysfunctional in ME/CFS. That will activate the body's normal ways of detoxing heavy metals and other toxins. Then, if it turns out to be necessary to do the chelation treatment, the body's detox system will be better able to help.

    If the body burdens of toxic metals, such as mercury, are too high, so that these toxins block enzymes in the methylation cycle or related pathways, then it will be necessary to do the chelation treatment first.""

    Bit of a predicament really, my gut symptoms arent improving I believe because of heavy metals or poor methylation yet @caledonia et al is saying you should treat gut before methylation. Also if I have compromised methylation then detoxing metals will be difficult....
  11. caledonia

    caledonia

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    @Fogbuster If you have SHMT and/or ACAT mutations, these are considered to be "leaky gut genes", and people with these mutations can have more gut problems. Furthermore, if you don't treat those mutations at the same time as the gut, you may not be able to heal the gut.

    Even in my case, without those mutations, I couldn't totally get rid of candida until I had done some methylation.

    You reported you did antifungals, vitamins and diet. Those are only two of the R's, so it's not a complete 4R program and won't work to heal leaky gut. There could be more things you were taking, but I can only go from your description.

    The bath thing sounds like either weak adrenals or POTS, both of which should be able to improved by methylation.

    There is a lady on here I was just talking to who is having a lot of trouble with SIBO, and I hope that's not your case, because it sounds very tough to resolve. She had a lot of trouble even getting it diagnosed as the breath test didn't pick it up. She's still working on treatment. It's possible that adding methylation to SIBO treatment could be helpful.
  12. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Taking clay orally removes mercury from the gut. You can start methylation very slowly while you do that.

    If you took antifungals but nothing to get the metals out, of course the fungus will return.

    I am one of the people who would prefer a different method from Andy Cutler's. For example, Vitamin c is good for getting out mercury. You might be able to find the book by Hal Huggins, the original get the mercury out of your head guy, and see what his recommendations were. Looking around for awhile can bring to light some information that might make you think twice about Andy's program.

    It seems like an impossible puzzle, but keep at it, you will find a way.
    Fogbuster likes this.
  13. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Senior Member

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    Thanks very much for the response @caledonia. I did take Betaine HCI, enzymes, probiotics and S.Boul.

    Just to clarify: "if you don't treat those mutations at the same time as the gut, you may not be able to heal the gut. ", are you suggesting that I can in fact do methylation before I attempt to heal the gut, they have to be done in unison or both of these options are possible?
  14. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Short answer, yes.

    Technically, SHMT and ACAT are First Priority mutations and sort of a warmup for the "real" methylation supplements, folate and B12. You need folate and B12 to create methyl groups.

    Folinic and ox bile wouldn't create methyl groups. (Unless there is some sort of conversion of folinic to methylfolate, sort of fuzzy on that without looking it up, but it wouldn't be a direct thing at any rate.)

    I think Yasko also has people taking B12 early on, even while doing gut work.
  15. caledonia

    caledonia

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    No glutamine to heal the gut lining?
  16. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Senior Member

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    Pardon my need for things to be spelt out @caledonia... "If you have SHMT and/or ACAT mutations, these are considered to be "leaky gut genes", and people with these mutations can have more gut problems. Furthermore, if you don't treat those mutations at the same time as the gut, you may not be able to heal the gut.

    Even in my case, without those mutations, I couldn't totally get rid of candida until I had done some methylation."

    Just from your own experience what do you think it could be which stopped me from healing my gut AT ALL and stopped me from improving any food sensitivities whilst I was on GAPS?

    I had L-Glutamine, but in my opinion using it is completely nullified if you don't get the overgrowth under control first, which is what I was unable to do, because of either heavy metals or poor methylation.

    What would you advise I start with? Heavy metal detoxing or Methylation to improve my ability to heal my gut and dysbiosis.

    Thanks

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