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Is ME/CFS caused by biological stress and perpetuated by high catecholamines and low blood volume?

lansbergen

Senior Member
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@ leokitten

Would it not be better to say biological stressors to avoid neckhairs going up because of what the psychs did?
 

leokitten

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Multiple people on this thread seem to be misinterpreting "stress" as psychological stress. Stress comes in many forms and most of them are NOT psychological. A pathogen is a stressor on the body, for example.

@leokitten can correct me if I am wrong, but it is not my understanding that he is suggesting that psychological stress is at the root of our illness. Please read leokitten's post #5 in this thread and the links he provided to show the distinction. I see nowhere in the OP any reference to psychological stress initiating (or perpetuating) the illness.

@SOC thank you, yes I not talking about psychological stress but have specifically wrote about physiological/biological stress. Based on the evidence I've written about in my post with my own disease and all the research and other findings the body seems to be in this state of biological stress with chronic high levels of catecholamines which I'm certain existed long before the disease started as well as high levels of cortisol early in the disease process.

Another thread which struck me (thank you @Emootje) and supports this hypothesis is Similarities Between ME/CFS Patients and Astronauts. Astronauts undergo a huge physiological stress burden to the body during space travel and guess what they get many of the symptoms of ME/CFS! I don't agree with other people that it's directly due to microgravity, the microgravity is just one of the immense stressors altering homeostasis and causing a stress response.

The fact that many of the symptoms of ME/CFS and that intracellular pathogens go on a rampage can be explained by chronic high levels of catecholamines and low blood volume. In fact the low blood volume can be explained by the chronic high levels of catecholamines and stress response.

As a good example, look at the physiology text book illustration in that thread clearly showing how sympathetic dominance and chronic elevated levels of catecholamines severely inhibit NK cells and Th1 cellular immunity , I re-post it here:

index.php
 
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leokitten

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Many years.

It could be that after many years with the disease catecholamine levels become low because during the first years and even before you got sick they were highly elevated and causing all kinds of damage, including the damage caused by the loss of blood volume.
 

leokitten

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Everyone look I'm not fooling you, all the research shows that people with ME/CFS have chronic sympathetic nervous system dominance and dysfunction (which means elevated levels of catecholamines) and the sympathetic nervous system is a key component of the body's stress response system.

Please look at this recent review paper of case controlled studies which looked at 196 ME/CFS articles:

Sympathetic nervous system dysfunction in fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel syndrome, and interstitial cystitis: a review of case-control studies.

There are so many other papers I can reference as well but this is a good start. Look at the conclusion:
CONCLUSIONS:
This review demonstrates that sympathetic nervous system predominance is common in fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel syndrome, and interstitial cystitis. This concordance raises the possibility that sympathetic dysfunction could be their common underlying pathogenesis that brings on overlapping clinical features. The recognition of sympathetic predominance in these 4 syndromes may have potential clinical implications. It may be worth exploring the use of nonpharmacological measures as well as drug therapies aimed to regain autonomic balance.

Here's another recent review paper:

Malfunctioning of the autonomic nervous system in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome: a systematic literature review.

Again if you read the paper they show that the malfunctioning is due to sympathetic nervous system dominance and dysfunction.
 
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Martial

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Man I really wish RichVanK was still around, he was such a pioneer and had so much potential to crack the codes of so many chronic illnesses..
 

Sushi

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Everyone look I'm not fooling you, all the research shows that people with ME/CFS have chronic sympathetic nervous system dominance and dysfunction (which means elevated levels of catecholamines) and the sympathetic nervous system is a key component of the body's stress response system....

Here's another recent review paper:

Malfunctioning of the autonomic nervous system in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome: a systematic literature review.

Again if you read the paper they show that the malfunctioning is due to sympathetic nervous system dominance and dysfunction.

Yes, autonomic dysfunction is almost always there in ME/CFS but I wonder if the dominance pattern changes over the course of the illness. Reading the article above, it confirms autonomic dysfunction but, as I read it, it doesn't specify what type.

When I had a tilt table test (all the bells and whistles) done by an autonomic specialist he found "hyperparasympathetic responsiveness as evidenced both by the tests that go through the baroreflex mechanism and those that don't. Orthostatic Intolerance together with symptoms of orthostatic intolerance, a pattern of abnormal venous pooling in the spalanchic area and the development of othostatic hypotension."

He also said that that the sympathetic system was "try to compete with the parasympathetic."

He said that while most of his patients showed hypersympathetic responses, some, like me were the opposite.

Sushi
 

cigana

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Hi Leokitten
Sorry you've been given a bit of a hard time ;) I found your posts interesting and am fine with you using the term stressors (as indeed Rich Van K did). One thing I am not understanding is that you say the Th1 deficiency could be caused by raised catecholamines but you also say that they may only be raised in the beginning of the disease...so what would continue to cause immune imbalance after the catecholamines have dropped?
 

peggy-sue

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;)
SOC said "I suspect that if we're going to play "my education is bigger than your education", @leokitten is going to beat you hands down. ;)".
That's fine. I wasn't "playing games", just trying to do short cuts. I'm also sure wessely and white have much higher qualifications than I do.
My cognitive problems are absolutely my worst, I have trouble stringing my own sentences together and cannot keep track of more than one idea at any one time.

I was referred to two wiki articles to "explain" the differences, neither of which did the job well, and wiki is not exactly what I would consider a reliable primary source.

I shall bow out. I'm clearly not cognitively well enough to be actually discussing this sort of thing any more.
 
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Richie

Senior Member
Messages
129
Depends what is mean at by ME/CFS.
If it means that portion of CFS diagnosees with actual anatomical myalgic encephalomyelitis, I doubt the raised catecholamine claim, though raised catecholamines may be a forerunner of the illness.
e.g. Raised c.....es, raised cortisol, lowered immunity , infection, failure to resolve infection, ensuing myelitis and brain inflammation.
Raised c...s and raised cortisol would in themselves be more suggestive of depression but there is no reason why depression cannot coexist with organic fatigue states, either as aresult of inflammatory activity, e.g. diversion of tryptophan away from serotonin production, and/or as reactive depression. I do not thinkkm there are striaghtforward equations e.g. high cortisol = depression either.

I still think ME should mean exactly that "myalgic encephalomelitis", with CFS being a more heterogenous entity, although I don't think we can say that that real ME is always worse than other CFS.

The work on Lymes vs CFS int he States throws up the problemloose nomenclature . Lymes is a real cause of actual neuroanatomical myalgic encephalitis and myalgic encephalomyelitis. I suppose it may be hard to say to what degree a Lymes sufferer with Lymes induced ME is suffering because of that condition and to what extent other aspects of lymes are causing the symptoms, but nevertheless real neuroanatomical ME is a late stage result of Lymes.

American organic based CFS patients, however , have been shown in one or two studies to have different spinal fluid composition form Lymies and also different brain scan results, which is then "translated" from American into English as "Lyme's is not ME", since in the mind of many Englsh sufferers "real organic American CFS" is equated with "ME". But infact Lymes is one of the actual caused of ME, but different from what is causing other people's organic, genuine American CFS.

It happens again when ME is claimed to be "retroviral only". It's just not true as the Lymes ME cases show. There may be a large number of CFS diagnosees with or without ME whoses course can only be explained by retrioviral infection, but that does not make retroviruses the only cuse of ME. And the same logic is at work when ME is claimed to be "by definition" a n illness made worse by exercise. There may be many diagnosees for whom that is true but if someone has Lymes ME and Lymes depression, a littlle exercise might help.

All the arguments about "is ME cuased by", what was wrong with Martine McCutcheon etc. etc.revolve around the fact that noone is tested for real ME, assumptions are made that ME is the real deal and CFS is fro less affected, that real organic american CFS/CFIDS equates to real organic ME, etc. etc.

We'll never reach agreement on these issues if we don't know what we are discussing, much to the delight of those who think we are all vague anyway.

Richie (28 years suffering, 14 years "diagnosed" as "a perfectionist who gives up too easily", no history of exercise avoidancer except during a period of depression, HPA stuff, mito stuff, immune stuff, all the CFS stuff going on when finally looked into, ME??? who knows??, physically ill definitely).

(should add that all or some of the American CFS group and the Lymes group may have had neuroanatomical ME or none of them)
 
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maryb

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I was definitely under stress the months if not years before I got sick, mentally and physically I pushed myself on and on. (working too hard, custody battle, DIL from hell, holiday from hell immediately before the virus) I hit the deck abruptly with an inner ear viral infection that resulted in a cascade of symptoms never experienced before involving the gut, heart, brain etc. The above all makes sense to me.

I don't read stressors as necessarily involving psychiatric disorders, I've never suffered from one.

Sressors people with ME have described as experiencing before getting ill include, road accidents, dental trauma, surgery etc. as well as actual mental stress.
 

Richie

Senior Member
Messages
129
Stiting the obvious, we face the problem that whereas if you get diabetes, MS, sarcoidosis, lupus, heart attack etc etc and tell the medics that you had had a period of stress, they still treat you for the organic pathology.
Tell a medic you had stress before CFS/ME/FM diagnosis and you will often be listened to sympathetically and then dismissed as psychologically ill. And of course testing for pathology will be seen as "connivance".

On the subject of catecholamines dopamine is often low in CFS and FM, I think there is conflicting evidence on noradrenaline and adrenaline.
Adrenaline is methylated noradrenaline, I think, so Richvan's methylatuion priotocols might help iwhere adrenaline is low and nor adrenaline high.
 
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leokitten

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This is just replacing detailed knowledge of biochemistry with vague "stress". Stress is biochemistry. Just saying stress does not replace detailed understanding of the biochemical dynamics. In any case when biologists speak of stress factors, they speak of stressors. ANYTHING that perturbs normal function is a stressor ... but it does not equate to stress. This is a different use of the term. If you wish to cite biochemical stress, which appears to be the case, then to avoid ambiguity and misunderstanding its good to stop using the term "stress" as you will be continually misunderstood. Its also better to be clear about specific biochemistry, and the evidence for it, than citing stress or stressors.

In terms of conventional notions of stress, the stress model is dead so far as I am concerned. It would take major and striking research to resurrect it. Many people get stressed, only people with ME have our unique issues with energy production.

Now if someone has ideopathic chronic fatigue, aka CFS, then it could be anything. That does open the door to psychological stress and stressors. Yet being possible does not make it reality. The stress model has failed here too.

The question as to whether biological stressors can cause ME dysfunctions, the answer has to be yes. The term is so vague and encompassing that just about anything as a cause of ME would be called a stressor. Again, to avoid ambiguity and misunderstanding its good to not use the term. Stick to the biochemistry, as you have done with catecholamines etc.

Sorry for seeming vague @alex3619, I didn't mean to and am specifically talking about biological/physiological stress(ors).

It is my current belief that ME/CFS doesn't have a single direct cause other than the "vague" term biological stress. I currently believe that the scientific and medical community will not be able to determine any more specific upstream causes than this that apply to all of us. What is clear to me is that people with ME/CFS, especially early in the disease process and very likely long before they got the disease, are exhibiting a strong and chronic stress response, i.e. sympathetic nervous system activation, high levels of catecholamines, periods of high levels of cortisol. There are so many things that can cause a biological stress response.

This is why every attempt to try and determine a specific cause has failed, because so many things can cause biological/physiological stress on the body and different people will be more susceptible to different things. Every person, with their individual genetic makeup, current health as well as their health and environmental history, etc. has more or less sensitivity to certain stressors, has a higher or lower total stress burden that they can withstand, and can withstand it for more or less time compared to others.

Person A might be very sensitive to certain environmental toxins more than Person B, while Person B because of a previous illness as a child might be more sensitive to certain viruses, etc. You get what I'm talking about.

When enough stress burden for enough length of time is put on that particular person then they hit the tipping point and fall into ME/CFS or potential other chronic related diseases.
 

leokitten

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Hi Leokitten
Sorry you've been given a bit of a hard time ;) I found your posts interesting and am fine with you using the term stressors (as indeed Rich Van K did). One thing I am not understanding is that you say the Th1 deficiency could be caused by raised catecholamines but you also say that they may only be raised in the beginning of the disease...so what would continue to cause immune imbalance after the catecholamines have dropped?

Let me be clear, I have not found or read any research yet that shows that later in the disease sympathetic activation/dominance stops and elevated catecholamine levels go down, I have only read that people with the disease exhibit sympathetic dysfunction and dominance and elevated levels of catecholamines.

I responded to a user that said they have low levels of catecholamines and therefore don't fit into this picture. They have had the disease a long time before measuring this and we know that this disease changes over time, so I would guess that after having the disease a long time your sympathetic hyperarousal would wear out. This is just an educated guess.

And why would the Th1/Th2 imbalance continue even after? Another educated guess would be that after years of having the disease, letting infections run rampant, all the other damage caused by a chronic stress response and dysfunction, that other factors would then come into play to keep your immune system like this.

This original thread was to try and give theories and pose questions as to what are they root causes that start the entire chain of events. I think later in the disease when things become less "clean" and the person has built up a lot of damage and gets things like autoimmunity, etc. it becomes much more difficult to see what is going on.
 

alex3619

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Logan, Queensland, Australia
This is why every attempt to try and determine a specific cause has failed, because so many things can cause biological/physiological stress on the body and different people will be more susceptible to different things. Every person, with their individual genetic makeup, current health as well as their health and environmental history, etc. has more or less sensitivity to certain stressors, has a higher or lower total stress burden that they can withstand, and can withstand it for more or less time compared to others.

Person A might be very sensitive to certain environmental toxins more than Person B, while Person B because of a previous illness as a child might be more sensitive to certain viruses, etc. You get what I'm talking about.

When enough stress burden for enough length of time is put on that particular person then they hit the tipping point and fall into ME/CFS or potential other chronic related diseases.

I regard this as a possibility, but only a possibility at this point. Its something we should be thinking about though.

There is no question that some people are more vulnerable to some issues than others. Causes range from genetics, epigenetics, toxin exposure, diet, comorbidities, and indeed anything that induces alterations in function expressions of genes.

There are many possibilities as to why the cause has not been discovered. First, it might have been discovered, but we missed it. This is entirely plausible, just look at the 65 years we failed to realize CPET was a good test in ME, aside from the very few researchers who were working on it, and the small number of doctors who followed that research.

Second, it might be something we do not understand yet, or cannot measure. We cannot presume the science is complete enough to include every possible cause.

Third, there may be many different causes muddled together on the basis of a similar final syndrome. The evidence is strongly suggestive that ME is two diseases, not one, but this does not rule out one disease with two different disease expressions. Different disease expression groups are known in other diseases. (This is of course ignoring the heterogeneous hodge-podge of CFS diagnoses.)

When you look at neurally mediated hypotension, especially those who become bradycardic not tachycardic, then you realize there are two response groups to any demand for sympathetic compensation to cope with lowered blood pressure in the brain. The one we hear about a lot is POTS, in which the heart races. The other one, a group I am in, has a massive slow down of the heart, and can lead to the heart stopping. This is a parasympathetic response, not a sympathetic one. Its a big percentage of us. So all that can be said is that either there are two subgroups from two different causes, or again two different expressions of an underlying cause.

The tipping point idea is covered in both catastrophe theory and chaos theory. Its a general mathematical expression. Its probably right, but again the real question is mechanisms. How do we test probable mechanisms? Simply showing there is data that might support a particular view is not enough. This is general problem in much of medical research, and particularly psychiatry. Things do not get tested.

What predictions of a particular model run counter to the current models, and how do we test for them? Thinking of tests, and testing, is useful, because if something can be demonstrated that was not expected in other views its a good basis for evidence.

Low blood volume on the other hand is a topic that has been inadequately explored, and for which the research is sparse. Its one of the things that has not appeared interesting enough to have research funded. Much of which is written is speculation. We know it exists, we know its common in us, but we do not understand it. I find this deplorable.

Th1/Th2 dominance tends to be stable unless perturbed, or at least that is my current understanding of it. Both cause a shift in immune cell subtypes, and the cytokines from those subtypes maintain the immune status. Of course the notion of Th1/Th2 is coming under a lot of fire, as its highly possible that this is an artificial distinction, and the debate in immunology is ongoing. Even Th1 and Th2 is looking too broad and vague, and over-simplification of something very complex and dynamic.
 

Richie

Senior Member
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129
Leokitten, Aleks
On why TH! may remain active. (It may just be ongoing infection, of course)..
Post sarcoidosis fatigue which occurs in a significant percentadge of "recovered" sarcoid patoents may be instructive. it is believed to be TH1 mediated as is active sarcoid. PSF symptoms overlap with ME/CFS/FM spectrum. Active sarcoid inflammation with granuloma is apparently resolved, thoiugh there may of course be occult granuloma..
It has been speculated if granuloma are absent that TH1 remains active post sarcoid due to LOW adrenaline in a post "knock put"illness state and for that reason some patients have been treated with exercise to get the adrenaline pumping. It may be very controversial to promote exercise/behavioural activation in any form fro ME/CFS/FM, but I have often wondered if e.g. Lightning Process rather than lowering adrenaline might actually work by raising it, in some cases where it is claimed to help..
(Of course if candida and adrenal suppression + potassium loss have set in due to steroid administration in a sarcoid patient then raising activity alone will not work).

On cortisol/catecholamines

Is it possible that activated sympathetic response may be a way of producing cortisol to dampen down inflammation in earlyish stage infection or autoimmunity? I have certainly had periods of high cortisol, but also of low. Further the diurnal aspect must be remembered - illness is exhausting. You might be fired up to produce cortisol against inflammation at one time of the day, but be unable to sustain production, with a diurnal boom and bust pattern for some months into illness and a declining pattern of lower and lower production as time goes on unless the cause of the inflammation is resolved. Catecholaminse might follow a similar boom and bust, then declining pattern.

Later reactive depression, with which many of us are familiar, may raise both catecholamines and cortisol again, if the system is strong enough to sustain a response, creating more confusion.

On psychological stress
Imo we must be careful not to dismiss psychological stress or be open again to accusation of mind body dualism and denigration of mental illness (unwarranted accusations of course). It is now believed that psychological stress can alter bone marrow production and promote inflammation, offering an insight into bio mechanisms but also implying that psychologuy is important in some inflammatory disease. This may please the shrinks and will not be news to e.g psoriasis sufferers, but the correct deduction would not be "see a psychotherapist or remain voluntarily ill" but "yes, stress can make us physically ill, so we will treat the physical illness for that very reason, and the stress too, as we might in e.g. psoriasis, diabeted,".

Overall too many things going on in too many people over too long a time to tie things down definitively..
 
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rosie26

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@alex3619
I get the slow heart where I think my heart will stop. But I also have had the fast heart pumping like I have run a marathon. Can both happen in this illness. I may have the fast heart pumping confused. It could be a result of a slow heart trying to pump harder - making me think it is tachycardia.
 

alex3619

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@alex3619
I get the slow heart where I think my heart will stop. But I also have had the fast heart pumping like I have run a marathon. Can both happen in this illness. I may have the fast heart pumping confused. It could be a result of a slow heart trying to pump harder - making me think it is tachycardia.

The slowing I am referring to is not easily confused with tachycardia. In my case my heart did stop. This is not uncommon. It can be fatal. It leads to syncope along the way. Now if the person falls down, stabilizes their blood pressure, then the heart resumes usual function ( I wont say normal function, that is another story). The easiest way to revive someone in that position is to elevate the legs. I wonder how many paramedics and docs know that?
 

rosie26

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The slowing I am referring to is not easily confused with tachycardia. In my case my heart did stop. This is not uncommon. It can be fatal. It leads to syncope along the way. Now if the person falls down, stabilizes their blood pressure, then the heart resumes usual function ( I wont say normal function, that is another story). The easiest way to revive someone in that position is to elevate the legs. I wonder how many paramedics and docs know that?

I definitely get the slow heart rate. Your right, there is no mistaking that one.
Since having ME I am very surprised at what doctors don't know:rolleyes: I don't understand how they don't even understand POTS. It's a major symptom for some to deal with in ME. It's only since coming here to PR that I have learnt the name of that symptom which I had severely.

This might sound ridiculous but I also found lying down and trying to bring about a shiver helped raise my blood pressure. I did this one time when I really thought my heart going to stop completely.